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Old May 20th, 2008, 02:17 PM   #481
Joop20
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What happened, elf?
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Old May 20th, 2008, 10:32 PM   #482
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Still working on the ferry colour code
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Old May 20th, 2008, 10:39 PM   #483
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Sorry, got distracted - where was I? I was thinking, shall I put some words on it? Like names of cities and stuff?
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Old May 20th, 2008, 10:55 PM   #484
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I can do without. But I think it would be great if the high speed lines were a bit wider in the map than the non-HSR lines. Just a suggestion

The map looks really good by the way!!
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Old May 21st, 2008, 10:14 AM   #485
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thats easy enough and I like that idea.
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Old May 25th, 2008, 01:10 PM   #486
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Slightly thicker lines, is this better?

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Old May 25th, 2008, 01:25 PM   #487
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But the line should run from Copenhagen to Rödbyhavn, no?
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Old May 25th, 2008, 03:06 PM   #488
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It's a minor detail since it's not HSR, but still it would be nice to get sorted. No matter what, Denmark looks really pathetic on that map. A monument of shame for the politicians around here..

But the map really does looks great now, Elfabyanos!! Thank you once again for doing this work. Too bad the thread has gone a bit dead, but I am sure a lot of people out there appreciate your work.
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Old May 26th, 2008, 03:35 PM   #489
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I agree, the map looks fantastic. Great work elf Presumably all of the lines in that area are now on the map? In which case the logical next step is to draw together the sources for each line and get it published
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Old May 26th, 2008, 03:59 PM   #490
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It seems so strange that there is no high speed track between Brussels and Antwerp. It's the only piece missing in the puzzle for Belgian HSR and ironically it's the busiest connection (between the two biggest cities) maybe the distances are just too small?

I think distances will be a problem for the whole Amsterdam-Brussels line, sure the trains can go 300km/h and the tracks allow for it, but it never will because it has to stop all the time... Amsterdam, Schiphol, Rotterdam, Antwerp, Brussels... that's 5 stations in 200 km. And that's in a best case scenario, some trains stop even more.
In comparison, Brussels and Paris are 300 km away, yet the Thalys doesn't stop anywhere.
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Old May 26th, 2008, 04:51 PM   #491
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The Dutch local high speed trains are only capable of 250km/h, as you say 300km/h is not necessary for such small distances. However the Thalys trains will be able to take advantage of teh full line speed. Also, Brussels to Antwerp is not far and the classic line the trains already use is relatively straight - I'm sure they can do at least 160km/h. It would be nice to have the hole filled which I'm sure they will do.

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Old May 26th, 2008, 06:46 PM   #492
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It is a lot of stops indeed, and that's not ideal. On the other hand: both Belgium and the Netherlands don't have one big city so it's more or less a necessity.

And the track between Schiphol and Rotterdam and Rotterdam-Antwerp is long enough to get to 300 km/h for a useful amount of time.

About the Antwerp/Brussel track: well yes it is fairly short, however I don't think it's rated even for 160 km/h plus it's a very busy part of the Belgian network. A dedicated track (which wouldn't even have to be 300 km/h, probably not necessary) would be quite useful, especially since it would mean the whole Amsterdam-Paris line would be one voltage.
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Old May 26th, 2008, 08:42 PM   #493
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Great work, there should also be a grey line between Edinburgh and Inverness via Perth and Stirling as there is 1 HST service a day on this classic line.
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Old May 26th, 2008, 09:10 PM   #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ced_flanders View Post
It seems so strange that there is no high speed track between Brussels and Antwerp. It's the only piece missing in the puzzle for Belgian HSR and ironically it's the busiest connection (between the two biggest cities) maybe the distances are just too small?
The Belgian government has promised to upgrade the line to 160 km/h as far as I know. That said, it's not always clear what "upgrade to xx km/h" means. Some of the lines on this map (the excellent map - please don't get me wrong) that are marked down as 200 km/h or 250 km/h can only be served at these velocities on very short selected segments. (This is, for example, the case in the UK and parts of Germany.) Last week I took the train from Rotterdam to Paris and let me tell you this: the part between Brussels and Antwerp is really a problem. Maybe the line is suitable for 160 km/h already (?), but there are such bottlenecks on the commuter sections around Mechelen and northern Brussels (Vilvoorde and thereabout) that this "international high-speed train" almost came to a halt. (After Brussels they then left it for the French to recouperate the 15 minutes that les Belgues had squandered.)

When I look at a map of the newly built lines in Belgium I do get the impression of a master plan, though. Fast track from Louvain to Lille and, some day, on to Germany. Fast track from Antwerp to Rotterdam. And... you have excellent freeways from Brussels to Louvain and to Antwerp (in a country that mostly puts new railway lines next to the freeways), both of them passing Brussels International Airport to the northeast of the city. Allow me to guess that the long-term plan of the Belgian authorities is to make a tunnel or whatever to the airport and from there branch out with two new highspeed lines toward the east and the north.
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Old May 27th, 2008, 10:14 AM   #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by priamos View Post
Some of the lines on this map (the excellent map - please don't get me wrong) that are marked down as 200 km/h or 250 km/h can only be served at these velocities on very short selected segments.
Thats part of the reason they're a different colour, however on the UK map there are only a few sections coloured where 125mph isn't possible, the majority of the routes are as coloured, apart from maybe the WCML but it's being upgraded and will look like that by the end of this year.
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Old May 27th, 2008, 12:09 PM   #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Thats part of the reason they're a different colour, however on the UK map there are only a few sections coloured where 125mph isn't possible, the majority of the routes are as coloured, apart from maybe the WCML but it's being upgraded and will look like that by the end of this year.
Aha, thanks. What are they doing about level crossings, d'ya know? I'm asking because this is one of the things that often lead to slowdowns on lines that are technically capable of highish speeds. Recently I was in Frankfurt a.M., travelling on the blue route between Frankfurt and Mannheim, and the ICE3 train I was in did reach high speeds occasionally (they have an excellent acceleration as you probably know) but repeatedly had to slow down for crossings and small towns. In the end the effective speed on this line was little more than 100 km/h.
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Old May 27th, 2008, 02:58 PM   #497
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Unfortunately not much although replacement is a long term aspiration on all the lines - quite understandibly the railway operators are uncomfortable with the practice of blocking the line on purpose with large metal objects on wheels!

The maximum speed of level crossings in the UK is 225km/h on the east coast mainline (though no trains go faster than 200km/h at the moment) and I've posted a vid of some on the Britain rail pics and news thread. Level crossings do not cause slow downs normally, I would have thought it would be restrictive curves causing that slow down you noticed in Germany, or that the level crossing wasn't automated necessitating a more cautious approach?

For example, on the Great Western in the UK the only speed restriction between London and Swindon is Reading station, where there is currently a 130km/h limit (likely to be removed as the station will be rebuilt soon) but most trains stop there anyway. there really are only occasional checks, usually at stations.
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Old May 27th, 2008, 09:25 PM   #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
The maximum speed of level crossings in the UK is 225km/h on the east coast mainline (though no trains go faster than 200km/h at the moment) and I've posted a vid of some on the Britain rail pics and news thread.
Hum... yes, but the distance between London and Edinburgh is 530 km (as the crow flies - it's of course a bit more following the tracks) and the fastest train connecting these two cities along the east coast mainline needs 4h20. Wouldn't that indicate that the train does not, by far, travel at 200 km/h on all the route? I realise that part of the problem is the train wastes some 25-30 minutes on 5 (five, goddammit!) intermediate stops, but still....

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Level crossings do not cause slow downs normally, I would have thought it would be restrictive curves causing that slow down you noticed in Germany, or that the level crossing wasn't automated necessitating a more cautious approach?
I correct myself: I now realise that the track my train followed was the one on the western bank of the river and that is most definitely not the one that is supposed to be upgraded for 200 km/h. Answering your question, I think it has more to do with non-automated crossings - and perhaps saturated tracks - than with curves. The line in this part of Germany is straight like an arrow.

It's one of the points where I suppose Germany looks more like the UK than my native (tiny) Denmark and my adoptive (largeish) France. In both of the latter countries the density of population is around 115 persons per sq.km. and heavily concentrated in a handful of cities. As soon as you're outside the main agglomerations you can roll - even on old, crummy tracks - a pretty constant 160 km/h. In the much more densely populated areas of central Germany and (??) southern England I guess there's an constant problem with congestion and crossing urban zones.
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Old May 28th, 2008, 12:54 AM   #499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by priamos View Post
The Belgian government has promised to upgrade the line to 160 km/h as far as I know. That said, it's not always clear what "upgrade to xx km/h" means. Some of the lines on this map (the excellent map - please don't get me wrong) that are marked down as 200 km/h or 250 km/h can only be served at these velocities on very short selected segments. (This is, for example, the case in the UK and parts of Germany.) Last week I took the train from Rotterdam to Paris and let me tell you this: the part between Brussels and Antwerp is really a problem. Maybe the line is suitable for 160 km/h already (?), but there are such bottlenecks on the commuter sections around Mechelen and northern Brussels (Vilvoorde and thereabout) that this "international high-speed train" almost came to a halt. (After Brussels they then left it for the French to recouperate the 15 minutes that les Belgues had squandered.)

When I look at a map of the newly built lines in Belgium I do get the impression of a master plan, though. Fast track from Louvain to Lille and, some day, on to Germany. Fast track from Antwerp to Rotterdam. And... you have excellent freeways from Brussels to Louvain and to Antwerp (in a country that mostly puts new railway lines next to the freeways), both of them passing Brussels International Airport to the northeast of the city. Allow me to guess that the long-term plan of the Belgian authorities is to make a tunnel or whatever to the airport and from there branch out with two new highspeed lines toward the east and the north.
works already started. They're constructing an entirely new railway section between Diegem (north of Brussels) and Zemst (south of Mechelen) in the middle of the A1-E19 Brussels - Antwerp highway. In the middle is a wide green section reserved for possible extention, but will be now used for the construction of this railway, allowing high speed trains using this track leaving the other for dense commuter traffic up to Brussels. Part of this project is the extention of the railway from the airport to this new track so trains to the Netherlands and Germany departing from Brussels can pass by the Brussels Airport in Zaventem. the openingh of this section is planned for 2012. This track will be more or less 14km long.The maximum speed for this section is unclear ...

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Old May 28th, 2008, 10:25 AM   #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by priamos View Post
Hum... yes, but the distance between London and Edinburgh is 530 km (as the crow flies - it's of course a bit more following the tracks) and the fastest train connecting these two cities along the east coast mainline needs 4h20. Wouldn't that indicate that the train does not, by far, travel at 200 km/h on all the route? I realise that part of the problem is the train wastes some 25-30 minutes on 5 (five, goddammit!) intermediate stops, but still....
Yes, it's the part of the route to the north of Darlington that causes the delay - I may have taken a bit of artistic license with the amount of blue north of Newcastle. South of Darlington it's pretty much all 125mph/200km/h apart from a couple of 100mph checks at stations such as Peterborough. The average speed London-York is about 100-105mph, with all the stops. The record London-Edinburgh on this route is 3 hours 29 minutes, though a lot of that was at 140mph/225km/h and it used a short formation train.
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