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Old May 28th, 2008, 12:59 PM   #501
priamos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali_B View Post
works already started. They're constructing an entirely new railway section between Diegem (north of Brussels) and Zemst (south of Mechelen) in the middle of the A1-E19 Brussels - Antwerp highway. In the middle is a wide green section reserved for possible extention, but will be now used for the construction of this railway, allowing high speed trains using this track leaving the other for dense commuter traffic up to Brussels.
Very interesting, thanks! (I pat myself on the shoulder: it appears I HAD read the Belgian planners' intentions correctly...;-)) It also explains another thing that had been bothering me: the Belgian authorities have hummed and ha'ed over whether or not to make a new tunnel between the northern and southern railway stations in Brussels. Considering that the existing tunnel is saturated (and old and creaky...) I didn't see that there could be much debate over this point. However, if they open a new railway corridor out of town in a northeastern direction then they'll be asking themselves if the "grandes lignes" via Gare du Midi shouldn't eventually shun Gare du Nord completely.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 08:20 PM   #502
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Finland

In Finland VR operates tilting Pendolino trains made by Alstom, reaching 220 km/h in regular operation between Helsinki and Lahti on a route spanning some 50 kilometers. This railway was opened in 2006. The trains stay at 200 km/h on a longer route between Helsinki and Tampere. Other parts of the Finnish railway network are limited to lower speed. The Pendolino network touches on several major cities. A service is currently under construction from Helsinki to St. Petersburg, Russia utilizing Pendolinos, due to open in 2008.

Finland uses its 1524 mm gauge, not standard gauge since they want to use the same trains for both high-speed railways and old enhanced railways. The only trans-border railway to Sweden at Tornio is not planned for border crossing passenger trains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-sp...Europe#Finland
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 08:20 PM   #503
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Some news on the HSR line under construction towards northwest spain, the PDF is only available in spanish but
it contains some construction pics.

It also has some info on the Galician rail upgrade project.

http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/7...14/My04_13.pdf
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 11:36 PM   #504
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Very interesting, thanks! (I pat myself on the shoulder: it appears I HAD read the Belgian planners' intentions correctly...;-)) It also explains another thing that had been bothering me: the Belgian authorities have hummed and ha'ed over whether or not to make a new tunnel between the northern and southern railway stations in Brussels. Considering that the existing tunnel is saturated (and old and creaky...) I didn't see that there could be much debate over this point. However, if they open a new railway corridor out of town in a northeastern direction then they'll be asking themselves if the "grandes lignes" via Gare du Midi shouldn't eventually shun Gare du Nord completely.
That's the Josaphat tunnel between Schuman and Meiser, so that the European quarter can be connected with the airport. This tunnel will connect the line outgoing to Antwerp, Liège and airport with line going to Namur as the great orbital which shall be used heavily be the introduction of a partly french rer commuternetwork within a year of fiver
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Old June 3rd, 2008, 05:08 AM   #505
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Today (Monday 2 of June) was oficially launched the international bid for the construction of the Poceirão-Caia section of the Lisboa-Madrid HSL.

English version (in .pdf) avaialble here:
http://www.rave.pt/Portals/0/Documen...raft5__Ing.pdf

Spanish version available herE:
http://www.rave.pt/Portals/0/Documen...__Espanhol.pdf

Nonetheless ... nevermind the little detail that the 2 HSL tracks are merely a part of a corridor that is almost completely built today ... and has been in construction for the past 7 or 8 years without fail ... let's call it (the HSL) an "isolated act" instead of a part of a bigger route.

Of the 200km of the 3(or 4) track connection Lisboa-Badajoz more than 140km of the "slow" tracks are already built/upgraded with 40km electrified (15km more undergoing electrification) , 20km are at 200km/h (with other 30km upgraded to the same standards but still awaiting electr. and signaling)
To connect the two tips with High Speed trains the only stretch needed is the Evora-Caia section.

Changing the subject:

Recently some new developments of the Northern Line were anounced:

Santarem-Entroncamento is to be upgraded to 200/220km/h in acordance with the rest of the previous works on the route ... the Environmental impact avaliation has just comenced this past 15 of May and will last until the end of this month(june) ... all things proceeding acording to sheddule ... or so it seems.

this will bring almost all the entire Lisboa-Soure(almost 200km) & Mealhada-Espinho route up to HSL standards (more than half the total route at speeds well above 180km/h except for a couple of restraining points at VFXira and Caxarias)

^ Soure-coimbra-Mealhada (15/20km each way inside Metropolitan area of Coimbra ... so "urban" tracks) and Espinho-Porto (15km inside the Metropolitan area of Porto ... also "urban" tracks) will be only upgraded at the same time of the construction of the new HSL Lisboa-Porto as was previously anounced.

We can say that practicaly the entire corridor will be a "pure" upgraded HSL before the end of the decade.

Down south the Alcaçer variant (in the south line) construction is proceeding well ... and work has begun in the upgrade and electrification of the Barreiro-Pinhal Novo route ... wich are a part of the conventional (albeit at speeds of somewhere between 140/250km/h) from the cross tagus crossing to the spanish border (the other part is the new HSL corridor of course ... making it a 4 track route from Lisboa to Badajoz)
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Old June 3rd, 2008, 06:34 AM   #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Sorry, got distracted - where was I? I was thinking, shall I put some words on it? Like names of cities and stuff?
Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Slightly thicker lines, is this better?

Still the lines served by lines ???

About the large cities ... I would propose a very different (and radical) aproach ...

Black dots reserved to large cities served by HSL (wich may or may not indicate that theres not HSL tracks over there ?)
Black circles (inside left blank? or just a black stripe over the route color) for areas where a particular route has a small SLOW area (an old tunnel or a city crossing where a variant was not built ??? <<< instead of putting a dashed

And I strongly sugest the use of a differentiated color for "in project" routes (instead of the dotted/dashed) ...

Changing subjects again:

FYIO:



A) Trofa tunnel (from pk20 to pk24 ... it's a part of the Porto-Braga-Vigo project) ... under construction (at least it should be underconstruction ... not confirmed yet) ... (but still it's only 140km/h tracks due to being inside Porto urban area ...
(and it is expected that most of the Porto-Braga route will eventualy be slower than expected ... forgive the redundancy)

B) Contumil (pk2,5 to pk8,5) the line will be quadrupled (currently it's 2 tracks only) (also part of the upgrade Porto-vigo works) ... work hasn't started yet

C) Espinho tunel (actualy it's an underground station) .. work already complete.
It marks the end of the high speed zone ... from here to the north its all 120/140km/h(north are only 15km actualy ... they arepainstakingly removing the remaining level crossings in the area).

D) this area (Ovar-Espinho) is actualy 140/160km/h of unrenovated tracks ... it's the old SPEED RECORD area ... more level crossings are being removed here (3 or 4)

E) Santarem-entroncamento ... new track layout/alignement (for 220/250 km/h) under EIA ... current tracks are being repaired , signaling upgraded and level crossings removed ... can be an "upgraded" or a completely new route depending on the results of the EIA.

F) Santarem variant ... new alignement on the oposite side of town ... major station so it will be 160/220 km/h only ... still under EIA (?)

G) more level crossing supressions ... to remove extreme speed limitations (as low as 60km/h thru VFXira station) ... another area (4/5km long) wich will be limited to 140/160 km/h

H) Lisboa-Madrid HSL ... Poceirão (limit of Lisboa Metro Area) to Caia (portugal/spain border) section put to tenders (see .pdf above)
Poceirão-Evora will be 2 tracks of HSL and the upgraded conventional line ... Evora-Caia will be 3 tracks (2x HSL + 1 cionventional with dual gauge sleepers for future gauge conversion from Iberica to UIC)
Special notice ... in the portuguese section the route will be made to 350km/h running (As stated in the anouncement in portuguese language).

I) Section of the conventional route already upgraded to 250 km/h with dual gauge sleepers ... section sheduled to be electrified late this year.

J) new alcaçer variant (25km long) under construction ... acording to plans the old route will remain exclusively to serve regional and intercity trains ...

K) current track upgrades and electrifications in the lisbon area (futurte connection to the new tagus bridge)


Notice: after the Lisboa-Caia route it is sheduled to built the Lisboa-Porto OR the Porto(actualy Braga)-Vigo route ... they both are dependent on the political (read €€€€) flow of things at that time.

the Aveiro-Salamanca will eventualy NEED to be built in the next 10/20 years since it is a mere upgrade/variant to the heavily used Beira Alta Line (wich was upgraded to 160 km/h in 1995)

And last the Evora-Beja-Algarve is merely an intention ... it can be as easily a mere upgrade/elctrification of the current route or a completely new 250/350 km/h HSL (at Beja theres a new airport under construction with shedulled conections to CHINA)


More detailing in the map:

- Porto (upper black dot) should be a little more up ...
- Porto-Braga is served by Alfa Pendular (all trains go to/from lisboa so they travell at 220km/h) so the grey line is effective there
- there are only 2 sections of some 15km each side of coimbra left to upgrade over the center of portugal (the 3rd black dot I placed there)
- current SLOW speeds dont translate to line speeds but to ENFORCED limitations ... you don't see those kind of "security"/"safety" related limitations in almost nowhere in europe ...
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Old June 3rd, 2008, 07:11 AM   #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Yes, it's the part of the route to the north of Darlington that causes the delay - I may have taken a bit of artistic license with the amount of blue north of Newcastle. South of Darlington it's pretty much all 125mph/200km/h apart from a couple of 100mph checks at stations such as Peterborough. The average speed London-York is about 100-105mph, with all the stops. The record London-Edinburgh on this route is 3 hours 29 minutes, though a lot of that was at 140mph/225km/h and it used a short formation train.
Last time I was inside a Virgin red pepper (aka 390 Pendulino) we got ourselves an enlarged sheduled (7h from Glasgow to Euston ?) , a thunderbird acompanied by a 15 minute "mind the gap and smoke like crazy men" at Preston ... a touristic ride SPEEDING THRU Manchester (yess ... god bless railtrack engineering works) and a subsequent DIRECT travel from (where did we left the dam'n thundie? somewhere south of Crewe ... in wich we didn't stop) all the way to Euston ... lets say that we managed to bypass crewe some 1h15/1h30 behind shedule (missing all connectinons in the way to london) and then get a direct passage almost to the end of the route ... where we arrived ON SHEDULE ... actualy 30 minutes earlier than sheduled (a littel bit of ovspeeding always helps I might say).

By the time we should be in Stafford we're on our way to Manchester ... by the time we're on coventry w should be on Rugby ... in the end we bypassed Watford(?) on shedule.

this acording to the enlarged sheddule ...

On the other hand ... its allways nice to be stopped 30 minutes inside the Flying scotsman (a HST) at a level crossing in the middle of a 125mph zone ... of the 5 ou 6 cars stopped there only one bloke had the clairvoiance to leave the road and go pass the railway in the BRIDGE just 100m to the side.
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old June 3rd, 2008, 10:06 AM   #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
About the large cities ... I would propose a very different (and radical) aproach ...

Black dots reserved to large cities served by HSL (wich may or may not indicate that theres not HSL tracks over there ?)
Black circles (inside left blank? or just a black stripe over the route color) for areas where a particular route has a small SLOW area (an old tunnel or a city crossing where a variant was not built ??? <<< instead of putting a dashed

And I strongly sugest the use of a differentiated color for "in project" routes (instead of the dotted/dashed) ...
Hi, I don't understand - why use yet more colours for u/c lines - surely the current design is sufficient? And I don't understand what you're saying about small slow areas - these areas are not dashed on my map!?!?!
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Old June 30th, 2008, 04:12 PM   #509
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It's been almost 4 weeks... any updates?
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Old July 1st, 2008, 02:30 AM   #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Hi, I don't understand - why use yet more colours for u/c lines - surely the current design is sufficient? And I don't understand what you're saying about small slow areas - these areas are not dashed on my map!?!?!
To aliviate things a bit.

You can use the same colours ... simply use a 1 pixel wide line of the new colour to place a line under construction ... instead of a dotted wide line.

If an old route exists and is being upgraded you can make that 1 pix line around the old route
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old July 5th, 2008, 04:25 PM   #511
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Great map!

I just noticed that there are occasional ICE services from Berlin to the Baltic Sea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCi...network_layout
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Old July 5th, 2008, 08:27 PM   #512
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An update on the spanish network, 80km is now UC on the Madrid-Portuguese border line. Se map provided with the link for gegraphical location.

http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/6...6/08062003.pdf
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Old July 15th, 2008, 09:26 PM   #513
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After looking at google I think the Vigo-La Coruña line should be considered an entirely new line. The alignment
is for (85-90%) entirely new and is much straighter than would be an upgrade. The trains will (once the whole line is finnished) run under an hour between the cities (155km). Traveltime between the two cities on the old line was 2h 40min.

The same situation is with the Zaragoza-Teruel line (170km). Before the "uppgrade" began, the traveltime was 2h 40 min and when the "uppgrade" is finnished travetime will be 1h 10 min. Although on this line the "new" railroad follow closely or dead on the old line.
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Old July 16th, 2008, 04:41 AM   #514
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Quote:
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Hum... yes, but the distance between London and Edinburgh is 530 km (as the crow flies - it's of course a bit more following the tracks) and the fastest train connecting these two cities along the east coast mainline needs 4h20. Wouldn't that indicate that the train does not, by far, travel at 200 km/h on all the route? I realise that part of the problem is the train wastes some 25-30 minutes on 5 (five, goddammit!) intermediate stops, but still....
Best travel times between Kings Cross and York are at 1h51 wich is nice for the ~310km of the trip.

and you are very wrong on your measures ...

Berwick - upon- tweed is some 540km north os KC

Edenborough Waverley is in fact precisely 100km lfurther apart then what it would be if a direct line was built ... 630km

So 3h plus 1h for 200km/h services is indeed a good time ... and the fastest "direct" train only needs 4h13 to reach Edimburgh (KC 15h departure)


but the fact is that the guy who claimed (back in the 80's ?) that the ECML didn't need active pendulation clearly was high on something ...


London-York could(or more precisely should) be 4 track 250 km/h ... York-Edemborough should be 2 track (4 when possible) 200km/h ... with pendulating trains able to reach 250km/h in most places


Quote:
Originally Posted by priamos View Post
I correct myself: I now realise that the track my train followed was the one on the western bank of the river and that is most definitely not the one that is supposed to be upgraded for 200 km/h. Answering your question, I think it has more to do with non-automated crossings - and perhaps saturated tracks - than with curves. The line in this part of Germany is straight like an arrow.

It's one of the points where I suppose Germany looks more like the UK than my native (tiny) Denmark and my adoptive (largeish) France. In both of the latter countries the density of population is around 115 persons per sq.km. and heavily concentrated in a handful of cities. As soon as you're outside the main agglomerations you can roll - even on old, crummy tracks - a pretty constant 160 km/h. In the much more densely populated areas of central Germany and (??) southern England I guess there's an constant problem with congestion and crossing urban zones.
In the York<->Liverpool "central" area of the UK there simply is no "concept" of a straight line at all ...

It seems south of england railways folowed the path of medieval walls and fences ... and in fact most of the land is covered with agricultural terrain.

Building a french/Spanish stile TGV network would be impossible given british secular legislative procedures.
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Old July 16th, 2008, 04:43 AM   #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
After looking at google I think the Vigo-La Coruña line should be considered an entirely new line. The alignment
is for (85-90%) entirely new and is much straighter than would be an upgrade. The trains will (once the whole line is finnished) run under an hour between the cities (155km). Traveltime between the two cities on the old line was 2h 40min.

The same situation is with the Zaragoza-Teruel line (170km). Before the "uppgrade" began, the traveltime was 2h 40 min and when the "uppgrade" is finnished travetime will be 1h 10 min. Although on this line the "new" railroad follow closely or dead on the old line.
It could be considered "upgraded" track in the same maner as most other blue lines on the map.
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old July 16th, 2008, 11:32 AM   #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Best travel times between Kings Cross and York are at 1h51 wich is nice for the ~310km of the trip.

and you are very wrong on your measures ...

Berwick - upon- tweed is some 540km north os KC

Edenborough Waverley is in fact precisely 100km lfurther apart then what it would be if a direct line was built ... 630km

So 3h plus 1h for 200km/h services is indeed a good time ... and the fastest "direct" train only needs 4h13 to reach Edimburgh (KC 15h departure)
Indeed. I also need to remove the blue bit north of Newcastle, as the 200/225km/h max speed goes as far north as Darlington, max speed northwards from there is no more than 185km/h.

Quote:
but the fact is that the guy who claimed (back in the 80's ?) that the ECML didn't need active pendulation clearly was high on something ...
Its unbelievably frustrating, as was a lot of decisions from the 80s.

Quote:
London-York could(or more precisely should) be 4 track 250 km/h ... York-Edemborough should be 2 track (4 when possible) 200km/h ... with pendulating trains able to reach 250km/h in most places
FYI - some further detail - The Huntingdon - Peterborough section used to be 4 tracks, and there is talk of reinstating that from the current double. The Peterborough - Doncaster section is four tracks for a short distance north of Peterborough, then mainly two track to Doncaster with some long 3 track sections as freight loops. It is intended that all freight be diverted via Lincoln, and using that line as a sort of quadrupling of the mainline. At present this diversionary route is as bit below standard.

Doncaster - York - new section of track built in the 80s, some freight is being diverted from it, no need to 4 track as short distance anyway.

York - Northallerton - 4 track.

Northallerton - Newcastle - mainly 2 track - again plans to create diversionary routes for freight - there are billions of old alignments in this area that could be reused, or branch lines upgraded for this.
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Old July 16th, 2008, 06:25 PM   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
It could be considered "upgraded" track in the same maner as most other blue lines on the map.
I don't see how Vigo-La Coruña could be considered upgraded when almost the entire line is completely new?
It has a new alignment several km away from the old one.

For me an upgraded line is one where they have uppgraded the infrastructure of the old line, like the ones in Sweden for example. This line consists of entirely new infrastructure. Bridges, Tunels and trackbed built from scratch.
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Old July 17th, 2008, 07:19 AM   #518
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Quote:
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I don't see how Vigo-La Coruña could be considered upgraded when almost the entire line is completely new?
It has a new alignment several km away from the old one.

For me an upgraded line is one where they have uppgraded the infrastructure of the old line, like the ones in Sweden for example. This line consists of entirely new infrastructure. Bridges, Tunels and trackbed built from scratch.
haven't you read 1/2 post in this topic ???

Vigo-Corunha is upgraded track with major variants.

Routes are being considered as merely "corridors" (or something like that) ... Lisboa-Porto , Madrid-Valencia (old route) and Vigo-Corunha are basicaly mere"upgrades" to current routes ... but feel free to feed updated and detailed info to elfabyanos ... he would surely be glad for that extra info.
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Old July 17th, 2008, 07:27 AM   #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Indeed. I also need to remove the blue bit north of Newcastle, as the 200/225km/h max speed goes as far north as Darlington, max speed northwards from there is no more than 185km/h.



Its unbelievably frustrating, as was a lot of decisions from the 80s.



FYI - some further detail - The Huntingdon - Peterborough section used to be 4 tracks, and there is talk of reinstating that from the current double. The Peterborough - Doncaster section is four tracks for a short distance north of Peterborough, then mainly two track to Doncaster with some long 3 track sections as freight loops. It is intended that all freight be diverted via Lincoln, and using that line as a sort of quadrupling of the mainline. At present this diversionary route is as bit below standard.

Doncaster - York - new section of track built in the 80s, some freight is being diverted from it, no need to 4 track as short distance anyway.

York - Northallerton - 4 track.

Northallerton - Newcastle - mainly 2 track - again plans to create diversionary routes for freight - there are billions of old alignments in this area that could be reused, or branch lines upgraded for this.
Everything would be so much simpler if you had placed an aditional color in the map for those damn 180-200 km/h routes ...

"I told you so"



And I know how the ECML is currently perfectly well ... last year (or was 2 years ago?) I managed to get scolded by the lady in the bar of a HST because I was "hanging my head over the edge of the window and could be hurt by incoming trains" (while we were stoped at a malfunctioning High Speed level crossing) ... and other time we were STALLED on the end of a 4 track section somewhere up north and there were like 4 or 5 coals trains around us ... ALL moving ... and all pointing SOUTH in the other 3 tracks.


(sidenote: nothing beats 1track all the way to Inverness ... and that damn electronic tokens in the highlands)
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old July 17th, 2008, 09:29 AM   #520
gincan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
haven't you read 1/2 post in this topic ???

Vigo-Corunha is upgraded track with major variants.
By studying the new "variants" that are visible in Google, you will see that these "variants" are actually an entirely new route for the entire length of the line. The old line will be dugg up and scraped ones the whole line is finished. There have even been complains in the press because of this, since the new route skip som 20+ stations between the two cities.

You can't compare this line with Lisabon-Porto or Madrid-Valencia since those lines are indeed upgrades of the original infrastructure, in the Vigo-La Coruña case the entire line (save through cities) have been re built from scratch. The "variants" are merely sections that have been conected to the old line so that the new railway can be used during the construction of the remaining sections.

Last edited by gincan; July 17th, 2008 at 03:56 PM.
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