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Old August 27th, 2008, 07:05 PM   #541
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^Nice how close to reality are the plans? i.e. when will they be built realistically? In which order? I'm guessing the line to Wien/Bratislava would be first, right?

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Swede might be of help in this instance - he should be the most well informed Swedish forumer regarding the railway situation in the country.
I honestly don't know about speed limits on the ÖresundLink. 200km/h for a new-built line like that sounds pretty certain tho. I'm guessing it goes all the way to the link with the Danish main line, but I doubt trains are going 200 km/h all the way - and even if they it'd only be the Sweidsh X2000 trains since the commutertrains wouldn't wanna waste resources accelerating and braking the whole time.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 07:49 PM   #542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swede View Post
^Nice how close to reality are the plans? i.e. when will they be built realistically? In which order? I'm guessing the line to Wien/Bratislava would be first, right?
This is a layer in the "masterplan"(blueprint?) of the country,its as official as it can be,as of 2008 april...but no line will be built before 2020 AFAIK. There are 2 on that map which surfaced in the news,the one to Vienna(or Bratislava) in the TGV-est(?) plan,and the one to Bucharest,mainly in the romanian media.These have the highest chance to be built first.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 09:16 PM   #543
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Very interesting!

Are there any plans to link up the western and eastern HSR-trunks in Budapest? Would be logical IMHO to connect the line to Romania to the "Magistrale for Europe".
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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:02 PM   #544
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Very interesting!

Are there any plans to link up the western and eastern HSR-trunks in Budapest? Would be logical IMHO to connect the line to Romania to the "Magistrale for Europe".
The conventional lines are connected in the city:


The problem is,its a heavily used route,as its one of the 3 routes that cross the Danube in the entire country,and only 1 of those is on the correct route.
Making a "better" place for a station would include 2 bridges and a station in an area without even tramlines,hence a new metro.(On the island in the middle,somewhere south of the green "HÉV" line,though even that would mean cutting through densely-populated areas...)

The circled station on the other hand is perfect for such purposes,will get metro in a few years,but it will mean about 20min(or more,I dont know) to get out of the city on conventional lines which are heavily used by even freight trains.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:50 PM   #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swede View Post
I honestly don't know about speed limits on the ÖresundLink. 200km/h for a new-built line like that sounds pretty certain tho. I'm guessing it goes all the way to the link with the Danish main line, but I doubt trains are going 200 km/h all the way - and even if they it'd only be the Sweidsh X2000 trains since the commutertrains wouldn't wanna waste resources accelerating and braking the whole time.
Well, on the link (bridge-island-tunnel) all trains reach their maximum speed (180km/h for commuter trains, 200 km/h for X2000), but I guess the tracks are dimensioned for much higher speeds than that. As soon as it reaches the Danish side though, there are too many closely located stations for any higher speeds to be reached.

We can at least conclude that the link part should be marked as at least "newly built lines 200km/h+".
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Old August 28th, 2008, 12:04 AM   #546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
The problem is,its a heavily used route,as its one of the 3 routes that cross the Danube in the entire country,and only 1 of those is on the correct route.
Making a "better" place for a station would include 2 bridges and a station in an area without even tramlines,hence a new metro.(On the island in the middle,somewhere south of the green "HÉV" line,though even that would mean cutting through densely-populated areas...)

The circled station on the other hand is perfect for such purposes,will get metro in a few years,but it will mean about 20min(or more,I dont know) to get out of the city on conventional lines which are heavily used by even freight trains.
Interesting.
I tried to grasp the network as well as the topography of Budapest to fantasize about solutions, and I say I need to visit this city badly.
Adding a second railway bridge right next to the existing southern one with a station at Kobanya-Kispest or as you proposed at Kelenfoldi palyaudvar
Or a tunnel under the city with a station at Mexicol ut or Pillanego utca.

Quite off topic, is there a thread on railway projects/speculation in Budapest?
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Old August 28th, 2008, 12:13 AM   #547
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Interesting.
I tried to grasp the network as well as the topography of Budapest to fantasize about solutions, and I say I need to visit this city badly.
Adding a second railway bridge right next to the existing southern one with a station at Kobanya-Kispest or as you proposed at Kelenfoldi palyaudvar
Or a tunnel under the city with a station at Mexicol ut or Pillanego utca.

Quite off topic, is there a thread on railway projects/speculation in Budapest?
The best would be neither. You cant add a second bridge(city grew it around),and cant tunnel through,wouldnt justify the costs.

Budapest public transport:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444856
Railway infrastructure
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=501222

But just visit our section,we have our own. There are more qualified people there than I am.
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Old August 28th, 2008, 11:37 PM   #548
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Quote:
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What are plans for HSR in Czech Republic and other central European countries?
Plans are impressive, as usual(you can see one for Czech Republic on last page here: http://vrt.fd.cvut.cz/data/dokumenty...pce_vrt_cr.pdf), but in reality reconstruction on main tracks for 160 km/h is ongoing. That applies for Czech Republic, Slovak Republic, Poland and Hungary. So the possible construction of HSR will start after, so may be in next 5 years. I do not expect any completed HSR in CE in next 5 years.
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Old August 29th, 2008, 12:24 PM   #549
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Polish plans for HSR are discussed in this thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=603246
I've posted there an update about government plans issued this month...
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Old August 30th, 2008, 06:20 PM   #550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post
Well, on the link (bridge-island-tunnel) all trains reach their maximum speed (180km/h for commuter trains, 200 km/h for X2000), but I guess the tracks are dimensioned for much higher speeds than that. As soon as it reaches the Danish side though, there are too many closely located stations for any higher speeds to be reached.

We can at least conclude that the link part should be marked as at least "newly built lines 200km/h+".
"Only" 200km/h on the oressund seems reasonable and should definitely be classed as "High Speed" since it's a major oceanic crossing.

And one should always remember that those are the "trains" limits and not the railway/bridge.

Changing subject:

Over here the Lisboa-south/Madrid bridge is suposed to have lower than expectable speeds (limit not defined yet or should I say "not anounced" to the general public) but that is simply because the MAIN station is just 3km north of it (contrary to oresund wich sits in the middle of the route).

Speculating (about the Lisboa-Madrid route) speed limits will be something like:
(Departing from lisboa)
- 3km at 160 km/h (? or even less?)
- 7km at 120/160/200 km/h (probably different speed limits in the two extremities of the bridge since the "main" waterway is on the lisboa side)
- 5km of tunnel at 250/300 km/h (?)
- 180km at 350 km/h
As soon as the line exits from the bridge it imediately will dug onto a tunnel and from there it will be always "flat-running" until the border with no major obstacle to cross ... rougly some 550km will be run at full speed (possibly well above the anounced 350km/h in the future) between Lisboa and Madrid.

[to be continued]
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Old August 30th, 2008, 06:59 PM   #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
What are plans for HSR in Czech Republic and other central European countries?
The core HSR route will be probably Bratislava-Zvolen-Košice, although the voices for the northern corridor Žilina-Martin-Poprad-Košice are loud, but this route is getting modernised 160 km/h track. The good thing is, that many mayors already in the planning documentation reserved the area for the future construction.

The track number 614 is planned HSR route.



Bratislava and Brno /Břeclav/ route will be probably constructed right along D2 motorway. Bratislava-Žilina-Polish border is planned HSR connection to Poland.

But IMHO the first HSR will be connection from Bratislava to Vienna.
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Old August 30th, 2008, 08:30 PM   #552
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It would be great if the HSR-line "Magistrale for Europe" would go through Bratislava as well, instead of branching out - Vienna-Bratislava-Györ-Budapest.

Im curious what could be the reason for the branch in the days of Schengen.

http://www.magistrale.org/images/top...rale-zuege.jpg
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Old August 31st, 2008, 12:21 AM   #553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norbb View Post
It would be great if the HSR-line "Magistrale for Europe" would go through Bratislava as well, instead of branching out - Vienna-Bratislava-Györ-Budapest.

Im curious what could be the reason for the branch in the days of Schengen.

http://www.magistrale.org/images/top...rale-zuege.jpg
I think I probably know the reason, whatever....
Bratislava is a part of TEN17 corridor, so this is the most important issue.

Also, another contemplated project is prolongation of wide gauge railway from Košice to Vienna, so Bratislava really could not complain of minor attention.
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Old August 31st, 2008, 01:38 AM   #554
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I dont have the fear of Bratislava beeing ignored.
I just question the approach on this issue.


"Magistrale for Europe" and TEN-17 is basically the same, but apparently while the European Comission sees it to Bratislava with an independent line Vienna-Budapest, the Initiative "Magistrale for Europe" (carried by most cities on the line, and their chambers of commerce and industry) wants it to Budapest.

For me both positions are absurd, because having Bratislava with ~600.000 inhabitants so close to an imaginary direct and straight line between Vienna and Budapest, it is perfectly justified to bend that line to the north.

In addition there already is the "Marchegger Ast" - a single track planned to be upgraded and electrified - which with almost 40km is the longest perfectly straight rail track in Austria. This IMHO nullifies cost for a needed tunnel through Devinske Karpaty, as there already is the right of way for such a long section with no need to build an entirely new rail route.

I guess we just have to wait and see.
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Old August 31st, 2008, 02:49 AM   #555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norbb View Post
I dont have the fear of Bratislava beeing ignored.
I just question the approach on this issue.


"Magistrale for Europe" and TEN-17 is basically the same, but apparently while the European Comission sees it to Bratislava with an independent line Vienna-Budapest, the Initiative "Magistrale for Europe" (carried by most cities on the line, and their chambers of commerce and industry) wants it to Budapest.

For me both positions are absurd, because having Bratislava with ~600.000 inhabitants so close to an imaginary direct and straight line between Vienna and Budapest, it is perfectly justified to bend that line to the north.
We will see, what it will be like. Actually I read the latest "magistrale newsletter" and in the news is Slovakia very well presented. Also the words of railway representative by construction start of the new section "Connection from Paris through Strasbourg and Stuttgart to Bratislava, or Budapest is one of the most important projects... "Die Verbindung von Paris über Strasbourg und Stuttgart nach Bratislava bzw. Budapest ist eines der wichtigsten Projekte".

In any case, Vienna is the nearest centerpoint of HSR connection, Bratislava will be connected to it soon and without any doubt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Norbb View Post
In addition there already is the "Marchegger Ast" - a single track planned to be upgraded and electrified - which with almost 40km is the longest perfectly straight rail track in Austria. This IMHO nullifies cost for a needed tunnel through Devinske Karpaty, as there already is the right of way for such a long section with no need to build an entirely new rail route.

I guess we just have to wait and see.
Yes, on Austrian side the Marchegger Ast it is perfectly straight, from Slovakia the railway part not that much. From the Marchegg there are suburbian stations Devínska Nová ves and Lamač, moreover, before the Bratislava main station there are two tunnels, as the terrain there is hilly. So the need for a tunnel is real, but the lenghth could not be somehow big, up to 1 km, maybe more IMHO. Another point is, that from Lamač the existed railway run through highly urbanised area and the new HSR would as well. As I mentioned before, the similar thoughts are in connection to possible Bratislava-Břeclav line, in this case along the D2 motorway.

But constructing HSR line along the Marchegger Ast is maybe not that bad. The construction costs could be significantly lower.Or mabe you think Marchegger Ast could be reconstructed for HSR. But then which route would regular trains traffic run. Southern route through Petržalka would not be that sufficient.
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Old August 31st, 2008, 03:30 AM   #556
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Timoth12, I had in mind to upgrade Marchegger Ast to HSR with a tunnel through Male Karpaty and then coming from the north into new Filalka station. Then leaving Bratislava through the planned tunnel under the Danube to continue to Budapest. Or staying in Slovakia to avoid crossing the Danube and entering Budapest directly on the right bank (downside is leaving out Györ).




I browsed through the "[Slovakia] Railway Infrastructure" thread and I found some great info.

Info on the Tunnel:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=309

Great post by "Qwert" answering many quesitions:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=363

So basically the original route of TEN-17 ends in Bratislava, but only recently Budapest came into play. And it is still not clear what route will be chosen - I hope neither Budapest (as originally planned) nor Bratislava will be left out.
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Old August 31st, 2008, 07:24 AM   #557
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sorry wrong post, EDIT
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Old August 31st, 2008, 02:58 PM   #558
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2 Norbb: How is the HSR planning in Austria and especially Vienna proceeding?
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Old August 31st, 2008, 03:54 PM   #559
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The Hauptbahnhof Wien is going to be consrtructed until 2013 or so. (Currently construction works of the subterrenean S-Bahn below the new railwystation are conducted, the railwaystation itself will be begun in 2010)

While it doesnt matter so much for trains to Vienna it will tremendously speed up all trains via Vienna because the rail lines from all direction will get a powerful and rather fast connection through the city (Lainzer Tunnel being a key project in this regard).

The section from St. Pölten to Vienna is being finished in about the same time. (Also the railwaystation in St. Pölten is seeing a major overhaul).

Regarding the east section Norbb might know more though, I would also like to know the exact plans.
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Old September 1st, 2008, 12:14 AM   #560
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@ Timoth12

Slartibartfas already summed up the activities in Vienna - preparations to fast through-traffic at last.

And Shadow found a very interesting map, showing all built, u/c and planned high speed sections in Austria.




Source - bottom of this page:
http://www.hochgeschwindigkeitszuege...esterreich.htm

A great page BTW if you know german.
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