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Old February 14th, 2007, 07:21 PM   #41
Jape
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So, are you saying that German ICE trains are not high-speed trains since they share tracks with other types of trains? How about Pendolinos that are used is several European countries?
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Old February 14th, 2007, 10:21 PM   #42
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Um no, I said that few countries in europe have real highspeed lines because they are to expensive, only France have a network as of today. The german ICE have only short sections of dedicated tracks in Germany yet, the train is highspeed but most of the tracks are not. The Pendolino in for example Finland is highspeed train on conventional tracks, it is not a highspeed line.

You have to make a diffrence between highspeed trains and highspeed tracks, without dedicated tracks the speedlimit is basically 200-250 wheras on highspeed tracks trains run at 300 and beyond.

Last edited by gincan; February 14th, 2007 at 10:34 PM.
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Old February 15th, 2007, 09:41 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
The definition of HSL is basically dedicated tracks not shared with other types of traffic, ie freight, commuter, regional or slower long distance trains. This is why HSL is so expensive, it can only be used exclusively by High speed trains and require much higher safety standards. This is also the reason why most european countries yet haven't built any HSL or "high speed line".

HSL is also a financial risk, for example the Shinkansen which is the most successfull HSL network to this date have yet to turn profit. And the TGV is financially bleeding.
I thought that the Shinkansen and TGV were profitable. The first French HSL, the LGV Sud Est, paid for itself in ten years, AFAIK.
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Old February 15th, 2007, 11:31 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Luc View Post
I thought that the Shinkansen and TGV were profitable. The first French HSL, the LGV Sud Est, paid for itself in ten years, AFAIK.
Neither one of them is profitable. I don't think there is one profitable high speed system anywhere in the world. The ICE and Italian system surely aren't either.
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Old February 15th, 2007, 01:31 PM   #45
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France are thinking of running freight on the LGV mediterranee on the perpignan side into Spain, to increase profitability due to the forecast lower traffic levels. Would a world first - mixed use HSL.
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Old February 15th, 2007, 04:49 PM   #46
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Roma-Firenze HS line in Italy, even if today is used only by passenger trains, was designed to be used also by freight. Design speed 250 km/h, opened february 1977, even before the Paris-Lyon TGV line (even if this was planned only for passenger from the beginning).

Also the new lines under construction (Torino-Milano-Bologna-Firenze and Roma-Napoli) were planned to be used also by freight trains.
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Old February 15th, 2007, 08:49 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eomer View Post
Wrong: this is 250km/h.
200 km/h means "fast track" but nor "high speed track".
Not exactly, read please:


As UiC says:

In view of infrastructure:

As regards infrastructure, the definition of high speed rail covers a number of notions. A line is currently described as a "high speed line" when it is a new one designed to enable trains to operate at speeds above 250 km/h throughout the whole journey, or at least over a significant part of the journey.

So any line, whether a new one or an upgraded conventional one, suitable for carrying traffic at up to 200 km/h, may be considered a high-speed line if it satisfies special criteria such as substantial reductions in journey time, the crossing of mountains or straits, the use of narrow gauge track, the "network effect" bonus, etc.

From the standpoint of the infrastructure high speed traffic will thus comprise all traffic running on high speed lines, regardless of the type of rolling stock used.

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Old February 16th, 2007, 10:23 AM   #48
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Quote:
So any line, whether a new one or an upgraded conventional one, suitable for carrying traffic at up to 200 km/h, may be considered a high-speed line if it satisfies special criteria such as substantial reductions in journey time, the crossing of mountains or straits, the use of narrow gauge track, the "network effect" bonus, etc.
The Gotthard Base tunnel surely fulfills this criteria.
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Old March 10th, 2007, 08:02 AM   #49
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MISC | Railway Maps

I love high speed railways very much,I want to collect some high speed railways route map,thank you very much(Sorry,My English is not so good )

This is my collection:

Spanish AVE




Japanese Shinkansen




Taiwan's THSR




Korean KTX

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Old March 12th, 2007, 05:21 AM   #50
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A more detailed map of the Shinkansen network:


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Old March 12th, 2007, 01:00 PM   #51
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Great! What are those grey lines, btw?
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Old March 12th, 2007, 10:54 PM   #52
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Lines under construction
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Old March 19th, 2007, 03:01 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
So, do you have an up to date map without "wishes" and with real HSL (more than 250km/h) ?
"Tecnically" HSL is anything above 160/200kmh ... the high Limit now is 300/320/360kmh .. .and the "express passenger only" is just a cliché ...

[Basicaly if you have <300km and more than 4 stops a 300kmh line is not better than a 200/250kmh ... too much cost for little gain.

>250kmh (should be called "very high speed") running only begins to compensate for 500km with few (or none in case SNCF LGV East) where it can compete with air travel times.]


Almost NO region of europe falls in the second option ... only "la meseta" (in spain) and france.

250kmh running is pushing the envelope of mixed traffic lines to the limit ... but if you have dedicated tracks it's the "sweetspot" between Highspeed and low cost maintenance ...

For instance imagine that you have a 4 track line and you use all 4 as mixed traffic ... if instead you put 2 for low speed regional/freight and 2 for 160/350kmh TGV ... you got an HSL ... London-Southampton should be considered a HSL as the HST(class460?) run at 160kmh (third rail is the only limitation) and almost every line on UK runs on segregated double track.

France and Germany HAD a 160/200kmh prior to invest in HSL(280/320kmh) branches out of paris/Frankfurt/Hamburg ... Spain is slowly and painstikingly upgrading their network to 200kmh but already built their 350kmh core lines.

In the near future almost every main line in Europe will be a mixed double track with speeds of 200kmh or more ... only selected few wil be dedicated for high speed.
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Old March 19th, 2007, 03:07 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Um no, I said that few countries in europe have real highspeed lines because they are to expensive, only France have a network as of today. The german ICE have only short sections of dedicated tracks in Germany yet, the train is highspeed but most of the tracks are not. The Pendolino in for example Finland is highspeed train on conventional tracks, it is not a highspeed line.

You have to make a diffrence between highspeed trains and highspeed tracks, without dedicated tracks the speedlimit is basically 200-250 wheras on highspeed tracks trains run at 300 and beyond.
Paris-Lion is 100% new 300+ track ... Sevilla-Cordoba and C.Real-Madrid is 100% new 300+ track (the middle section between cordoba and C.Realis only 200kmh puting your theory to the flour) ... the freight doesn't run there for "prestige" reasons only.
Paris-Bordeus is 25% new track and the rest is run using old 200kmh track ... since the 50's /60's the route was high speed (almost all 200kmh).

High Speed means 200kmh or more ... "new track" should alow traffic at more than 250kmh "by design" ... but the rules apply the same way to running at 160kmh and more.

- segregated track
- signaling
- no level croosings
- etc ...
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Old March 21st, 2007, 07:35 PM   #55
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Well done Espana!
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 05:31 AM   #56
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Well done Espana!
Not all done yet, but in 2010!
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Old November 20th, 2007, 08:09 PM   #57
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MISC | European High Speed Rail Map

I've seen a few attempts in newspapers or online at mapping the expanding network of HSR in Europe, but they are always shot down as being inaccurate. What I want to know is, can we do any better? I'm sure that we can come up with a comprehensive list of lines, then someone would have to map them accurately.

Ideally I'd like to see lines in three divisions:
- 300km/h+
- 200km/h+
- less than 200km/h

(if only to make the UK look a bit better )

So how about it?
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Old November 21st, 2007, 04:26 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrishillcoat View Post
I've seen a few attempts in newspapers or online at mapping the expanding network of HSR in Europe, but they are always shot down as being inaccurate. What I want to know is, can we do any better? I'm sure that we can come up with a comprehensive list of lines, then someone would have to map them accurately.

Ideally I'd like to see lines in three divisions:
- 300km/h+
- 200km/h+
- less than 200km/h

(if only to make the UK look a bit better )

So how about it?
This is a great idea.
The problem is identifying the the specific line segments and then mapping them. I will be on vacation for the next five days. When I return in about a week, I will post my records for the the lines which support high speed operations and then other members can correct them.

After we have agreed on the lsit of lines, hopefully some will draw a map. All the maps which I have seen are very inconsistent on the status of the lines that they identify
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Old November 21st, 2007, 12:17 PM   #59
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We need to add in 'under contruction' and 'proposed' as well.
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Old November 21st, 2007, 12:57 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
We need to add in 'under contruction' and 'proposed' as well.
Under construction is a usfull idea but given the hundreds of start/stop and start again proposals which I have been tracking, I doubt that the cartographers could make a readable map if we included the "proposed" routes.
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