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Old December 14th, 2007, 12:47 PM   #121
Euklidisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Thanks very much, I shall expand the map northwards! The map is a great help indeed. Again I'm amazed and pleased at the progress of other countries that I have little knowledge of. I assume the parts listed as '2010' are u/c? How about '2012'? I won't put them on until they're u/c, though I will keep the info and once the map is done I can add in the proposed routes ot it aswell.
Both 2010 and 2012 is u/c
Here's info about the projects:

http://www.vv.se/bv_templates/Page____22094.aspx
http://www.botniabanan.se/default.aspx?id=2136
The Hallandsås tunnel (4 mb pdf)
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Old December 14th, 2007, 12:56 PM   #122
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Thanks Sweek for all the info and the links. I've made adjustments, the updated version will be going on there later today. At the moment it's very much a work in progress. I do intend to have it higher resolution and have text on it to help easy recognition. I'm concentrating on getting a working version first, but also it never looks right straight away and I think a lot of fiddling will need to be done with colours to get it looking pretty aswell. (I've always loved pretty maps - all the maps so far of HSL lines, especially the ones on wikipedia, are far from pretty with clashing colours etc). Plus I've got an insane problem with Inkscape not allowing me to type text without doing some really random stuff, like crashing, or changing font size then crashing, or changing font size, zooming right out, then crashing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Euklidisk View Post
Thanks a lot, they're all going in!

edit - I'm classing Göteborg–Trollhättan as a new build, because the line is effectively being ripped out and completely re-engineered, like a disused line that is re-used, without a period of dereliction inbetween. Is this fair? I'm not exactly sure where this line is though (help please!!)

Last edited by elfabyanos; December 14th, 2007 at 01:01 PM.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 01:03 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euklidisk View Post
elfabyanos, your map coverage of Sweden is rather poor Anyway:

Stockholm-Gothenburg, 200 km/h
Stockholm-Malmö/Copenhagen, 200 km/h
Gothenburg-Malmö/Copenhagen, 200 km/h
Stockholm-Gävle, 200 km/h
Stockholm-Eskilstuna, 200 km/h
Stockholm-Västerås-Örebro, 200 km/h

Nyland-Umeå (northern Sweden) finished 2010, 250 km/h
Gothenburg-Öxnered finished 2012, 250 km/h

All lines is mixed use.
Apart from the sections u/c, you´re totaly wrong on velocity. Only some of the sections on the mainlines Stockholm-Gothenburg/Malmo are designated for 200 km/h+, most of these lines are for 160-180 km/h. There are still plenty of level crossings on some of these sections for instance, which are not allowed when velocity on the line is higher than 160 km/h. Plus Gothenburg-Malmo still has some single track sections (incl. the notorious Hallandsaas), the same goes for Stockholm-Gävle and Stockholm - Örebro too.


Sorry but reality is not sooo fantastic as four-coloured brochures from a HS-train operator would like to tell ya.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 01:14 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkjkjk View Post
Poland
- Centralna Magistrala Kolejowa - app Warsaw - Katowice - 200 km/h capable

Anyway, i will be happy, if you keep not to show proposed lines on the map.
Proposed/approved are not going on there yet, but I would like to add them later. Can you clarify, is this line just approved then? If so, when will construction start?
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Old December 14th, 2007, 01:24 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Thanks Sweek for all the info and the links. I've made adjustments, the updated version will be going on there later today. At the moment it's very much a work in progress. I do intend to have it higher resolution and have text on it to help easy recognition. I'm concentrating on getting a working version first, but also it never looks right straight away and I think a lot of fiddling will need to be done with colours to get it looking pretty aswell. (I've always loved pretty maps - all the maps so far of HSL lines, especially the ones on wikipedia, are far from pretty with clashing colours etc). Plus I've got an insane problem with Inkscape not allowing me to type text without doing some really random stuff, like crashing, or changing font size then crashing, or changing font size, zooming right out, then crashing.



Thanks a lot, they're all going in!

edit - I'm classing Göteborg–Trollhättan as a new build, because the line is effectively being ripped out and completely re-engineered, like a disused line that is re-used, without a period of dereliction inbetween. Is this fair? I'm not exactly sure where this line is though (help please!!)
First of all, don´t classify those lines as throughout 200 km/h+-lines. Unfortunatly, I don´t have a map over the velocity


Btw this is a map where Göteborg - Trollhättan - Öxnered line is in the middle of this map:

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Old December 14th, 2007, 01:26 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Grotlaufen View Post
Apart from the sections u/c, you´re totaly wrong on velocity. Only some of the sections on the mainlines Stockholm-Gothenburg/Malmo are designated for 200 km/h+, most of these lines are for 160-180 km/h. There are still plenty of level crossings on some of these sections for instance, which are not allowed when velocity on the line is higher than 160 km/h. Plus Gothenburg-Malmo still has some single track sections (incl. the notorious Hallandsaas), the same goes for Stockholm-Gävle and Stockholm - Örebro too.


Sorry but reality is not sooo fantastic as four-coloured brochures from a HS-train operator would like to tell ya.
I have speed diagrams from the Swedish rail authority Banverket. My map is drawn from it.
In Sweden, 200 km/h is allowed on high safety level crossings.

My map is a simplification Local restrictions is not included.

X2000 between Stockholm and Gothenburg makes the journey down to 2h45m on the 455 km long stretch, it's an average of 165 km/h - The maximum speed is 200 km/h. Without long stretches of 200 or 180 km/h that would be impossible.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 01:30 PM   #127
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Alterations inlcude:

New-build's darker blue colour to indicate new lines that aren't quite HSL, 200km/h-250km/h
UK - addition of cross country route at 125 mph.
Italy - Bologna - Verona reduced in line speed.
Holland - New to Zwolle added.
Sweden - Various changes.
France - still haven't added Cherbourg line.
Switzerland - Gottsburg base tunnel.
Austria - Upgrade added.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 01:32 PM   #128
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I'm going to need clarification on Sweden!
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Old December 14th, 2007, 01:42 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
I'm going to need clarification on Sweden!
This is a "public" ducument from the Swedish rail authority Banverket. Yes, it's a simplification but it's at least drawn by them

Page 13-15, 3 mb pdf

http://banportalen.banverket.se/Banp...1_20050623.pdf

I have more detailed non-public diagrams if needed.

Some details:
- The short 250 km/h stretch near Stockholm is really 250 km/h , but no trains in sweden is cleared for that speed, the same holds for the short stretch from Båstad (north of Hallandsåsen) to south of Halmstad.
-The single track through Falkenberg (West coast) is being redrawn outside the city, finished 2008. 200 km/h.
-The gemetrical standard of the new Västkustbanan is 250 km/h, but the signal system and (mabye) catenary is restricted to 200 km/h
-The two regional lines Stockholm-Västerås/Eskilstuna was bult in the late 90:ies. The geometrical standard is 250 km/h but the signal system and (mabye) catenary is restricted to 200 km/h.
- The Ostkustbanan Stockholm-Gävle has two short single track stretches, otherwise it's 200 km/h all the way. The geometrical standard is 250 km/h on Uppsala-Gävle but the signal system and (mabye) catenary is restricted to 200 km/h.
- The lines Stockholm-Gothenburg/Malmö is upgraded mainlines. The catenary is old and there is some level crossings, but still mainly 180-200 km/h with tilting trains. 25-30 % extra speed in curves.

Last edited by Euklidisk; December 14th, 2007 at 02:20 PM.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 02:00 PM   #130
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Wonderfull work elf!

reading this these posts has pointed out to me that each country has different procedures and terminology. which can be very confusing. For example, in Germany the Koln to Duren route is considered a "Neubaustrecke" (a new line), the new tracks built beside the original route which was downgraded to the S-bahn. But the Duren to Aachen is considered an "Ausbaustrecke" which is a traditional line upgraded for operations at 200 km/h or faster.

The route from Karshrue to Basel is also confusing as the original double track line is being upgraded for 200+ km/h operations while at the same time a new double line is being built beside the old line. The new line is built to the standards of 250 km/h, except where it is providing an urban bypass for freight!!

The route from Strasbourg to Mulhouse has been capable of operation at at 200km/h for more than ten years but only a few of the trains were scheduled at these speeds to start with. About a year ago the hourly service to Basel was scheduled at 200 km/h and I suspect that the TGV trains to Basel are scheduled at 220 km/h.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 02:19 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Alterations inlcude:

New-build's darker blue colour to indicate new lines that aren't quite HSL, 200km/h-250km/h
UK - addition of cross country route at 125 mph.
Italy - Bologna - Verona reduced in line speed.
Holland - New to Zwolle added.
Sweden - Various changes.
France - still haven't added Cherbourg line.
Switzerland - Gottsburg base tunnel.
Austria - Upgrade added.
Comments:

I would suggest that the slower new lines (light blue) should be defined as 200-249 with the 250 km/p lines shown in dark blue. I am very uncomfortabel the see Hanover to Wurtzburg show in light blue!

Britain: adding the cross country route upgrades raises a whole set of issues about what percentage of the route operates at the designated speed. There are only short segments of the cross country route which realy operate at 200km/h. These issues also apply the Swedish network and upgraded routes in Spain

Holland: the new construction bypasses Den Hague

Switzerland: there a New line operating at 200+ km/h between Basel and Olten (Sorry, it is included)

Austria: The upgraded line runs from Sankt Polten to Wels (not Salzburg) and the section from Wien to Sankt Polten is a new line which will probably eventually operate at 250+ km/h but it will start out as 200+ km/h

Once again, Great work "Elf"
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Last edited by Trainman Dave; December 14th, 2007 at 02:26 PM.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 02:43 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Can you help me locate this line? The only Santiagos that I can find are in South America or on Spanish islands!!!??


yellow: U/C

Santiago de Compostela is in the north-west
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Old December 14th, 2007, 02:59 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post


Alterations inlcude:

New-build's darker blue colour to indicate new lines that aren't quite HSL, 200km/h-250km/h
UK - addition of cross country route at 125 mph.
Italy - Bologna - Verona reduced in line speed.
Holland - New to Zwolle added.
Sweden - Various changes.
France - still haven't added Cherbourg line.
Switzerland - Gottsburg base tunnel.
Austria - Upgrade added.

You forgot Madrid-Toledo high speed line which is working presently
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Old December 14th, 2007, 03:02 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euklidisk View Post
This is a "public" ducument from the Swedish rail authority Banverket. Yes, it's a simplification but it's at least drawn by them

Page 13-15, 3 mb pdf

http://banportalen.banverket.se/Banp...1_20050623.pdf

I have more detailed non-public diagrams if needed.

Some details:
- The short 250 km/h stretch near Stockholm is really 250 km/h , but no trains in sweden is cleared for that speed, the same holds for the short stretch from Båstad (north of Hallandsåsen) to south of Halmstad.
-The single track through Falkenberg (West coast) is being redrawn outside the city, finished 2008. 200 km/h.
-The gemetrical standard of the new Västkustbanan is 250 km/h, but the signal system and (mabye) catenary is restricted to 200 km/h
-The two regional lines Stockholm-Västerås/Eskilstuna was bult in the late 90:ies. The geometrical standard is 250 km/h but the signal system and (mabye) catenary is restricted to 200 km/h.
- The Ostkustbanan Stockholm-Gävle has two short single track stretches, otherwise it's 200 km/h all the way. The geometrical standard is 250 km/h on Uppsala-Gävle but the signal system and (mabye) catenary is restricted to 200 km/h.
- The lines Stockholm-Gothenburg/Malmö is upgraded mainlines. The catenary is old and there is some level crossings, but still mainly 180-200 km/h with tilting trains. 25-30 % extra speed in curves.
I'm only going to list lines at their practical operatinal current speeds - it is 'economical with the truth' to list a line at a certain speed when no trains actually run at that speed, even if the alignment is technically capable. In relation to the upgraded lines having interruptions in the listed line speeds, as Grotlaufen has posted, I'm separatng out 'upgraded' from 'new' precisely because most upgraded lines do have occasional interruptions usually, probably knocking about 10% from it's effective speed in most cases. Unless there are long sections that would geographically stand out on the map I will just keep it as a solid line. What I would like to know, are the gaps in the maximum upgraded speeds on these routes in Sweden significant? Sweden will probably take me a while to get right so please have patience with me - I will be asking many questions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Wonderfull work elf!
For example, in Germany the Koln to Duren route is considered a "Neubaustrecke" (a new line), the new tracks built beside the original route which was downgraded to the S-bahn. But the Duren to Aachen is considered an "Ausbaustrecke" which is a traditional line upgraded for operations at 200 km/h or faster.
Cheers mate. Ok, Koln - Duren should be changed in colour then to light blue. I had no idea Aachen to Duren had been upgraded - thanks. That means soon there will be a proper link soon between northern France (and the UK?) with just a small section of 'only' 200km/h! Excellent.

Quote:
The route from Karshrue to Basel is also confusing as the original double track line is being upgraded for 200+ km/h operations while at the same time a new double line is being built beside the old line. The new line is built to the standards of 250 km/h, except where it is providing an urban bypass for freight!!
I'll have both, side by side. Question - which side is which!?

Quote:
The route from Strasbourg to Mulhouse has been capable of operation at at 200km/h for more than ten years but only a few of the trains were scheduled at these speeds to start with. About a year ago the hourly service to Basel was scheduled at 200 km/h and I suspect that the TGV trains to Basel are scheduled at 220 km/h.
I've already got this on there. At the momet I'm not going to distinguish between 200 and 220 km/h, the bands are 200-249 km/h, 250-299 km/h and 300+km/h.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Comments:

I would suggest that the slower new lines (light blue) should be defined as 200-249 with the 250 km/p lines shown in dark blue. I am very uncomfortabel the see Hanover to Wurtzburg show in light blue!
According to the map on wikipedia these routes have a maximum of 250km/h. If they aren't I will downgrade them, however they are differentiated from the 300km/h lines in a slightly more navy blue, as opposed to the slower greyish blue. (The colour scheme is not finalised yet!) Do you have any links to shw the actual operational speeds?

Quote:
Britain: adding the cross country route upgrades raises a whole set of issues about what percentage of the route operates at the designated speed. There are only short segments of the cross country route which realy operate at 200km/h. These issues also apply the Swedish network and upgraded routes in Spain
I've only put in Birmingham to Derby for this reason, but also this touches on the issue Grotlaufen raised, and is partly te reason why I'm segregating new and rebuild, as though they may both have sections at a certain speed, the new builds tend to be more consistent. Is any of the MML cleared for 125mph? Sheffield to Doncaster?

Quote:
Holland: the new construction bypasses Den Hague
Austria: The upgraded line runs from Sankt Polten to Wels (not Salzburg) and the section from Wien to Sankt Polten is a new line which will probably eventually operate at 250+ km/h but it will start out as 200+ km/h
Thanks I will correct. Another question - are you saying this part of the Austrian line is complete, and that the rest to Salzburg is still u/c? Or that it's u/c but not all the way to Salzburg, only to Wels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frozen View Post
You forgot Madrid-Toledo high speed line which is working presently
Thaks, I missed it completely!

Last edited by elfabyanos; December 14th, 2007 at 03:20 PM.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 03:08 PM   #135
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I would recommend different color for background. That green is fighting with line colors. Try with bright gray.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 03:28 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
I'm only going to list lines at their practical operatinal current speeds - it is 'economical with the truth' to list a line at a certain speed when no trains actually run at that speed, even if the alignment is technically capable.
Yes, of course. Just as an interesting fact about where Sweden is heading. There is no planned upgrade to 250 km/h in near future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
What I would like to know, are the gaps in the maximum upgraded speeds on these routes in Sweden significant? Sweden will probably take me a while to get right so please have patience with me - I will be asking many questions!
The gaps on the Båstad*-Gothenburg stretch is Falkenberg (about 10 km, u/c 2008) and Varberg (about 10 km, planned). The 20-30 km nearest Gothenburg is 160 km/h.

The gaps on Stockholm-Gävle stretch is north of Uppsala (about 5 km, planned) and east/south of Gävle (about 10 km, planned).

Just as a clarification. In Sweden, single track doesn't automaticly mean low speed. Sweden is a scarce populated country. If there is no need for double track we go for the single. That's the case with Botniabanan - a 190 km 250 km/h single track railway.

*Båstad is on the north side of Hallandsås

Last edited by Euklidisk; December 14th, 2007 at 03:40 PM.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 03:48 PM   #137
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I would recommend different color for background. That green is fighting with line colors. Try with bright gray.
I've fiddled with the colour scheme a bit - the green was equiluminescent with the light blue. I'm going to sort out all the colour schemes a bit later on though to get it just right.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 03:58 PM   #138
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Changed the colour sheme - swopped the blue colours for 250 and above and 300 and above, makes a bit more sense with new 200 and above being darker. Added a few bits in Spain and fiddled with Germany. I'm leaving the u/c 250km/h in Sweden because, well, I am. I haven't changed anything else Sweden because I've been given a lot of info to work with and I want to get it right and be consistent with everything else. (and I can't read Swedish!) I think the background needs to be just a shade lighter still too.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 05:19 PM   #139
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That's a cracking map now, but I'd question the colour scheme. The fastest upgraded lines are in the darkest pink, so I'd expect the fastest new lines to be in the darkest blue...?
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Old December 14th, 2007, 06:29 PM   #140
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True, true. I'm going to swap the pink around. Reason being my intention is to have unchanged classic lines that have high speed trains running over them (for example on the approaches to city centres) in dark grey or black, whenever I get around to adding them. So the lighter the colour the faster.
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