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Old December 16th, 2007, 12:57 PM   #161
Euklidisk
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Originally Posted by Mattboy View Post
Great work elfabyanos, but does it really matter if a line is new or upgraded? Why not make it simpler? Just a thought.
Mabye separate mixed and non-mixed with freight instead. Passenger only often has higher grades. I dont know, but it may be unusual with non mixed =<250 and mixed >250 making that devide meaningless?
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Old December 16th, 2007, 01:36 PM   #162
elfabyanos
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Great work elfabyanos, but does it really matter if a line is new or upgraded? Why not make it simpler? Just a thought.
I believe it really does. Upgraded lines tend to have many handicaps that included flat junctions, occasional speed restrictions due to corners, stations (that usually have flat junctions and speed restrictions!), mixed traffic including stopping trains and freight, clasic signalling systems, the classic power supply (often a lower voltage or DC which hampers performance such as acceleration for multi-voltage trains like TGVs and ICE3s), often restricted clearance (so no TGV duplex) etc etc.

On the other hand new build lines tend to have grade separated junctions, high speed only traffic (though there are exceptions - especially on sections where a new line is needed but the passenger traffic is not enough to get a quick enough return on investment aswell as freight desperately needing access too, like Perpignan - Figueras), consistent line speeds with few tight corners requiring speed restrictions, modern power supply and signalling systems.

It is a lot of hard work, and at the moment the map looks complicated. I am however working on a colour scheme that wil be visually a lot more intuitive - one colour each for new and upgraded lines, with a matching key of 'darkness' for a particular speed - as in 200km/h will be almost an almost grey example of the colour (whether it's new build or upgrade), whereas 300km/h will be a vibrant colour.
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Old December 16th, 2007, 01:56 PM   #163
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Grreat work Elf

I hope you can keep your sanity with all this input

Poland: the CMK was constructed with civil engineering for 250km/h but to save money there were many poorly protected level crossings. Three years ago there were still some unprotected level crossings which would prevent operations at 200km/h along the whole route. I have not found any reports which indicate that they have been replaced and the route finnaly upgraded for 250km/h.

France: You are showing the Paris to Lyon Line as 300km/h. When was this upgraded fro 300 km/h operations. When it was built the TVM siganling was limited to 270km/h and it was not upgraded during the major renovations in the early 2000's. Further there are sections of the route from from Lyon to Avignon which are limited by their curves to 270km/h

Portugal: the Lisboa to Porto route has only a very few stretches which are upgraded for 220 km/h. During the project to upgrade the lines it was discovered that the ground was to unstable in the Tagus valley to support higher speeds with the engineering design and the speed were not increased over much of the route

I my experience the only way to keep track of the actual operating speeds on each route segment is to locate the infrastructure descriptions for open access operation (mainly freight today). These documents are hard to come by and fall out of date quickly. I think that you will drive your self crazy trying to accurately distinguish the variations of the operating speeds at greater that 250km/h but if you do I will try locate these details over time
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Old December 16th, 2007, 02:17 PM   #164
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On consideration I have found that only three speed groups seem to be usefull when categorizing the routes:

160 km/h and slower
Increasing speed beyond 160 km/h reguires enhanced signaling systems for most railway administrations

161 km/h to 249 km/h
This intermediate group covers all the routes which are upgraded for used by High Speed Trains in this speed range. It also includes new tracks which have not been constructed primarily for long distance, limited stop, high speed trains.

250 km/h and faster
All routes with operating speeds of 250km/h or more have constructed specifically for High Speed running. This might change in the future but I don't know of any proposals for upgrading exisiting tracks for speeds of greater than 230 km/h (Hamburg to Berlin)

As with any classification system this is not perfect but I have foundover the last twenty years that it is fairly simple to determine which of these three categories all the railway engineering projects fall. This is important as Railway administrations tend gloss over problems and pesky little details in their press releases. One of the details commonly omitted are the actual speed limits the new route which have just been opened.
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Old December 16th, 2007, 04:43 PM   #165
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Quote:
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France: You are showing the Paris to Lyon Line as 300km/h. When was this upgraded fro 300 km/h operations. When it was built the TVM siganling was limited to 270km/h and it was not upgraded during the major renovations in the early 2000's. Further there are sections of the route from from Lyon to Avignon which are limited by their curves to 270km/h
The LGV PSE was definitely upgraded to TVM 430 signalling during the 2001 rebuild and is operated at 300 km/h max, although the French wikipedia says that there is still a 270 km/h limit over 100km of the route, without being more specific.

http://perso.orange.fr/florent.brisou/LGV-PSE.htm gives some info on the legs and their speeds (see Vitesses maximales at the bottom of the page).

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/florent.brisou/Lignes.htm has links to the other lines.
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Old December 16th, 2007, 04:59 PM   #166
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elfabyanos -> about the CMK line in Poland (it's in Polish, but the numbers are the same ;P) http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMK
In a new plan the whole line will be upgrated to 250km/h to 2014 (the south part a few years earlier). Next year PKP Intercity will buy new trains (they will arrive in 2010), with the Pendolino system, with max. speed= 250 .
PS: During a test in 1994 the Italian Pendolino reached 250,1km/h which is the highest speed in central europe
PS2: Actualy they are upgrading bridges in the south part of the line
PS3: http://www.ic.rail.pl/album_cat.php?...r=DESC&start=0 here are some pictures of the line.
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Old December 16th, 2007, 05:29 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
France: You are showing the Paris to Lyon Line as 300km/h. When was this upgraded fro 300 km/h operations. When it was built the TVM siganling was limited to 270km/h and it was not upgraded during the major renovations in the early 2000's. Further there are sections of the route from from Lyon to Avignon which are limited by their curves to 270km/h
- Paris-Lyon was mostly upgraded to 300 km/h in 2001 for the oppening of LGV Med (Valence-Marseille). Between Passilly (junction to Dijon) and Macon (junction to Genève), the speed limit is still 270 km/h.
- Between Lyon and Avignon, this is 300 km/h and there is a 40 km section that allows 320 km/h.
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Old December 16th, 2007, 07:18 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Grreat work Elf

I hope you can keep your sanity with all this input

France: You are showing the Paris to Lyon Line as 300km/h. When was this upgraded fro 300 km/h operations. When it was built the TVM siganling was limited to 270km/h and it was not upgraded during the major renovations in the early 2000's. Further there are sections of the route from from Lyon to Avignon which are limited by their curves to 270km/h
There's lots, thats for sure!!! This thread is becoming a reference source for all sorts of data from all accross europe!

Anyway, re. Paris - Lyon; In my opinion it's a new build - as in the line is designed to modern standards. What I mean by an 'upgraded' line is specifically upgraded from a classic line, upgrades of new high speed lines are not included in this definition, as there is basically no effective difference between this line and an HSL that started out at 300km/h.


With regards the categorisation, I have chosen 200km/h as a starting point because this is a generally well known threshold for what is a fast rail service, indeed this is the USA's official definition. If I were to include everything that's 160km/h and above I would have to include all sorts of random lines like Tonbridge to Ashford (linespeed 160km/h, average speed of a service on it approx 100-120km/h, not exactly awesome) which aren't exactly going to be representative of the cutting edge of high speed travel in the 21st century. I've divided it up into 50km/h ranges which to me is quite intuitive. It's going to be hard getting accurate info, and I'm going to have to specify a certain degree of inaccuracy w/respect to upgrade lines, but I'm really thankful for everyone's help - it wouldn't be possible without it. Hopefully it will all make sense in the end.

Thanks for the updates 33Hz, Castle_Bravo and eomer.
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Old December 16th, 2007, 07:33 PM   #169
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This is fantastic Elf!

It just goes to show how much we still need to do in the UK.

I'm suprised that Edinburgh - Glasgow isn't connected by a higher speed line.
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Old December 16th, 2007, 07:57 PM   #170
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Considerable changes to Spain - Zoltan (or anyone else) I would be greatlful if I could have some feedback on the accuracy if the changes (I'll get the geography correct later).

I've added a line u/c to Poland, and coloured in the sea which is THE most iimportant change so far.

Updates still in the pipeline - Sweden, Finland, bit of Italy, some more Poland, Denmark.

@Zfreeman, I thought there was a proposal to electrify an old line? In fact I thought funding had been approved by Holyrood?
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Old December 16th, 2007, 10:14 PM   #171
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Southeastern Europe is under the sea now XDD
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Old December 16th, 2007, 11:19 PM   #172
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elfabyanos
Actually the CMK is a new line (opened in 1977, ok it's one year earlier than in your limits, but it's build in an other way than "classic" lines)
BTW: Thanks for adding it
PS: Anyone know when the line from Brussel to Antwerp will be build?
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Old December 16th, 2007, 11:27 PM   #173
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In Italy there is Pontebbana between Udine and Tarvisio (border with Austria), which is new line (finished in year 2000) for 200 km/h operation. Old one was dismantled.
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Old December 17th, 2007, 12:49 PM   #174
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Maybe sinking Eastern Europe was taking artistic licence a wee bit too far.

Castle_Bravo - the 1978 date isn't a deadline, but just the date of the Direttissima, which I thought was the oldest high speed route in Europe. I shall review the CMK to see if it should be regarded as a modern standard high speed line (even the direttissima stretches the definitioin in some respects).

Thanks for the update Keber, I shall add it. In fact I think there are a number of Alpine tunnel routes built or u/c that need adding to the map.
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Old December 17th, 2007, 07:40 PM   #175
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The CMK was created special for heavy freight trains and fast Intercitys. It connects the industrial part of Poland (Silesia) with the Capital-> Warsaw. It's build far away from other cities and it has only one station opened in 2006 (but actually no one use it :P). The curves are very wide (above 4 km), and now the freight trains take other routes so it sounds like a HSR line, but the technology used in the '70 was not good enough to say that it's a real HSR line, becouse they spare money, and now there are around 20 crossings with roads (they will change them into tunels), and no special security systems that are used on "real" HSR lines.
So i will call it an unfinished HSRline in use for 30 years ;P, but in a few years it would be finished
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Old December 18th, 2007, 01:23 AM   #176
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Great map, Elfabyanos!

Now spot the missing link - hint: it's between Germany and Sweden.. Well, we'll just have to plug it with a Maglev
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Old December 18th, 2007, 06:42 PM   #177
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Great map, Elfabyanos!

Now spot the missing link - hint: it's between Germany and Sweden.. Well, we'll just have to plug it with a Maglev

They could just extend the HS line through to Denmark to link in with the Oresunde Bridge and tunnel (i think that already has space for a train line - but hadn't been built yet ???) - Can anyone confirm?
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Old December 18th, 2007, 06:46 PM   #178
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Changes:

Yet another change to the colour scheme.
Eastern Europe has resurfaced.
UK, Italy, France, Benelux, Germany - added in classic lines served by trains that use the high speed lines for part of their journey.
Italy - added the pontybarny thing at Udine.

After deliberation I've decided to keep the CMK in Poland as a classic line.

Still to come - Norway, Denmark, Russia, Sweden fixes, Switzerland fixes, classic lines in all other countries.
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Old December 18th, 2007, 10:10 PM   #179
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more about central Europe - no more than 160 km/h
Czech Republic
- 3 main tracks upgraded to 160 km/h, more 160 km/h upgrades U/C
- CD (Czech Railways) has triple-voltage 200 km/h Pendolinos, operating now in Czech Rep., Slovakia and Austria, but nowhere at 200 km/h
-outer circuit of Velim testing circuit (13,3 km long) is cetrified on 200 km/h (half on 230 km/h)
Slovakia
- one 50 km track upgraded to 160 km/h, others upgrades U/C
Hungary
- some 160 km/h upgrades, more upgrades U/C
Slovenia
- some 160 km/h upgraded tracks operated by Pendolino
Croatia
- some 160 km/h upgrades, more upgrades U/C

Last edited by jkjkjk; December 18th, 2007 at 10:14 PM. Reason: +VTC
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Old December 18th, 2007, 10:27 PM   #180
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They could just extend the HS line through to Denmark to link in with the Oresunde Bridge and tunnel (i think that already has space for a train line - but hadn't been built yet ???) - Can anyone confirm?
I'm pretty sure there are commuter and other trains running between Copenhagen and Malmö.

A DE-SE link would probably use the to-be-built Fehmarn Belt bridge though, in addition to Øresundsbron.
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