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Old May 5th, 2009, 10:45 AM   #61
siamu maharaj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlis View Post
You cant stop them thats true, but you dont have to build roads either you can build tram or metrosystems instead.
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But, there are still a lot of people who enjoy this
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Old May 5th, 2009, 01:37 PM   #62
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I remember driving on 16-laned highway somewhere not far from Bruxelles, as well it's not the only one such wide road in Belgium as far as I remember, can someone provide pics of the sections?
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Old May 5th, 2009, 01:52 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Dahlis View Post
Not high, but low. With high population density you build efficient metrosystems. In high density areas you dont need a car and therefor no 10 lane motorway.
in this case netherland is a counter-example...
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Old May 5th, 2009, 01:59 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlis View Post
You cant stop them thats true, but you dont have to build roads either you can build tram or metrosystems instead.
and where do you get the money from?
(PT is extremely expensive...)
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Old May 5th, 2009, 02:15 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drimer View Post
Not in Europe but in Argentina we have a 2x5 highway...
its named "Autopista panamericana" or "Acceso Norte" (Panamerican Highway or North Acces)..




It's 2x6 near the city centre..
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Old May 5th, 2009, 02:16 PM   #66
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H123Laci,

What do you think would be more expensive:
a) moving a lot of poeple, each in their own metal box?
b) putting alot of people in one metal box, and then moving this box?

PT is only expensive relative to driving is some parts of the world because of the subsidies given to motorists.

Want proof? In developing countries, do you see many people driving to and from work because driving is cheaper that PT? No way.
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Old May 5th, 2009, 02:27 PM   #67
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Lol, on a per-mile basis, the rail system requires twice the amount of space than the Dutch motorway system.
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Old May 5th, 2009, 04:59 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whizz_pat View Post
Want proof? In developing countries, do you see many people driving to and from work because driving is cheaper that PT? No way.
So how does your proof equate to, say, amorphous poly-nodal urban areas again? Is there even a cost-equation possible when 90% of job locations cannot be reached with the same level of comfort (eg. time, availability) compared to a motor vehicle? Of course it would be nice to compare these transport modes in a vacuum but a real-life metropolis is based on its historic structure.
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Old May 5th, 2009, 07:37 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whizz_pat View Post
PT is only expensive relative to driving is some parts of the world because of the subsidies given to motorists.
well, in europe motorists pay enormous amount of car related tax, PT gets enormous amount of subsidy and yet the car is cheaper...

(at least for a busy working healthy adult...
kids, pupils, pensioners, cripples, etc. are exceptions... )
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Old May 5th, 2009, 07:55 PM   #70
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This is the best we have in Slovakia. With merging lanes it's 3+2+2+3 so 10 lanes. The motorway in the middle can be, however, upgraded on 2x3. Also D1 between Bratislava and Trnava is going to be upgraded to 2+3+3+2 with space for future 2+4+4+2.



Link: http://212.5.204.197/#?%23%3F=&zoom=...yers=0BFFFFFTT
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Old May 5th, 2009, 07:57 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
well, in europe motorists pay enormous amount of car related tax, PT gets enormous amount of subsidy and yet the car is cheaper...

(at least for a busy working healthy adult...
kids, pupils, pensioners, cripples, etc. are exceptions... )
How is the car cheaper?
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Old May 5th, 2009, 08:01 PM   #72
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The car isn't cheaper, people forget costs like write offs and maintenance which you don't have with PT. But most people have a car anyway, so they have those costs, so it's a bit of waste to travel with Public Transportation and have double costs (not taking other factors such as comfort, reliability and travel times into account), hence PT is only cheaper if you don't own a car at all. Given the average of 0,9 - 1,1 car per household in many countries, that aren't a lot of people.

Nearly everybody has a car, a recent survey in the Netherlands showed that even the lowest income group doesn't use PT for more than 25% of their mileage, and use the bicycle and car for the rest.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; May 5th, 2009 at 08:07 PM.
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Old May 6th, 2009, 12:46 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
and where do you get the money from?
(PT is extremely expensive...)
Public transport is much cheaper than everywone driving their own car. You just need to do proper city planning, sprawl is our enemy, suburban malls are our enemy. Dense traditional inner cities and towns are the future.
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Old May 6th, 2009, 12:50 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The car isn't cheaper, people forget costs like write offs and maintenance which you don't have with PT. But most people have a car anyway, so they have those costs, so it's a bit of waste to travel with Public Transportation and have double costs (not taking other factors such as comfort, reliability and travel times into account), hence PT is only cheaper if you don't own a car at all. Given the average of 0,9 - 1,1 car per household in many countries, that aren't a lot of people.

Nearly everybody has a car, a recent survey in the Netherlands showed that even the lowest income group doesn't use PT for more than 25% of their mileage, and use the bicycle and car for the rest.
Public transport can only work efficiently in major cities and thats what im talking about, cars are perfect in rural areas but they just dont work in the city. There is just no space for them!
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Old May 6th, 2009, 12:53 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
well, in europe motorists pay enormous amount of car related tax, PT gets enormous amount of subsidy and yet the car is cheaper...

(at least for a busy working healthy adult...
kids, pupils, pensioners, cripples, etc. are exceptions... )
How damn expensive is your public transport?
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Old May 6th, 2009, 01:01 AM   #76
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Can we get back on topic, please?
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Old May 6th, 2009, 09:07 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlis View Post
Public transport is much cheaper than everywone driving their own car. You just need to do proper city planning, sprawl is our enemy, suburban malls are our enemy. Dense traditional inner cities and towns are the future.
PT isn't at all cheap when you figure in the comfort level.
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Old May 6th, 2009, 09:20 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlis View Post
There is just no space for them!
an average car recquires about 10m2 for parking...
for 1 million car its 10km2...
there are about 1 million car in budapest, and budapest is about 630km2...

if you cant find 10km2 for cars, you make something wrong...
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Old May 6th, 2009, 09:25 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
How is the car cheaper?
one stop (say 500m) with a bus or tram costs 1 euro in budapest.
with a car it costs 0,03 euro.

so PT is 33 times more expensive...
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Old May 6th, 2009, 11:51 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
an average car recquires about 10m2 for parking...
for 1 million car its 10km2...
there are about 1 million car in budapest, and budapest is about 630km2...

if you cant find 10km2 for cars, you make something wrong...
It's a bit different though, because you park on different areas of the city, so you need more than one parking lot per car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Can we get back on topic, please?
Listen to Verso-man!
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