Milwaukee Suburban Development News

[Jesse276]

Originally Posted by brewcityfan

But what about the video??? Two Two Two!

Maybe you should start and explain why you thought it was urban.

[Twoaday]

I'll check it out tonight... or this weekend.

[Twoaday]

As long as this is the sprawl er suburban forum I'll add that the Fountains project clearly is just yet another suburban strip mall. Yea it looks a little better than a standard strip mall, but when you get right down to it.. it is a strip mall... It is just not urban... How will people get to the stores? Drive. Notice the surface lots everywhere. It's funny the "architecture" is so much beter... ha... no it's not the design is still well suburban, auto gheto, generica. I'm not holding out much hope for the 27th street video either.

[brewcityfan]

Originally Posted by Twoaday

As long as this is the sprawl er suburban forum I'll add that the Fountains project clearly is just yet another suburban strip mall. Yea it looks a little better than a standard strip mall, but when you get right down to it.. it is a strip mall... It is just not urban... How will people get to the stores? Drive. Notice the surface lots everywhere. It's funny the "architecture" is so much beter... ha... no it's not the design is still well suburban, auto gheto, generica. I'm not holding out much hope for the 27th street video either.

Well I'd have to respectfully disagree with you on that. While I'm not at all surprised by the comments - because I don't even think a miniature downtown Milwaukee in a suburb would qualify for you as "urban."

The bigger picture about The Fountains project is the fact that there are plenty of connecting sidewalks into the development. The neighboring Root River Parkway will also be connected into this - and with future enhancements it will become a quality, but smaller, Bayshore Town Center. Also the one-story buildings currently shown can add condos/apartments above them - making it a better mixed use project where residents would simply take the elevator down to the 1st level and walk to their stores. Also the surface lots can be replaced by parking structures if retail demand becomes great. The original conceptual plans are just that - a concept that can be changed and redone.

There's a definite variety here that other "strip malls" don't provide - offices, food, clothing, entertainment, high quality dining, and culture - that can and will most likely lure the residential component into this.

But, the fact of the matter is, my opinion is probably not going to enlighten anyone as heavily leaned as yourself. I'm just hoping others can see the bigger picture.

Thanks also for the 27th Street comment. At least some people know how to respond.

[Milwaukee, WY]

Originally Posted by brewcityfan

Well I'd have to respectfully disagree with you on that. While I'm not at all surprised by the comments - because I don't even think a miniature downtown Milwaukee in a suburb would qualify for you as "urban."

The bigger picture about The Fountains project is the fact that there are plenty of connecting sidewalks into the development. The neighboring Root River Parkway will also be connected into this - and with future enhancements it will become a quality, but smaller, Bayshore Town Center. Also the one-story buildings currently shown can add condos/apartments above them - making it a better mixed use project where residents would simply take the elevator down to the 1st level and walk to their stores. Also the surface lots can be replaced by parking structures if retail demand becomes great. The original conceptual plans are just that - a concept that can be changed and redone.

There's a definite variety here that other "strip malls" don't provide - offices, food, clothing, entertainment, high quality dining, and culture - that can and will most likely lure the residential component into this.

But, the fact of the matter is, my opinion is probably not going to enlighten anyone as heavily leaned as yourself. I'm just hoping others can see the bigger picture.

Thanks also for the 27th Street comment. At least some people know how to respond.

Alright Brew,

I grew up in Greenfield, and my parents still live there, so I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who does really appreciate the suburbs for what they are. Suburbs are what they are, I will pass no judgement on that. I think that building more walkable communities is commendable. What I don't think you realize here is that Fountains is a wholly private development. You (and I mean developers) can't create a "downtown". What it really is, is a shopping mall that looks like a downtown. It's still a destination that most will get to by car. Yes, there may be some residential mixed in, but even the nearby residents are likely to have to drive some distance to get to work. A true downtown of the type that were built in this country prior to WWII, were not built in 18 months by a single private developer and stocked with national chain stores. This is why despite the Disneyland architecture and parking meters, Bayshore TC is not a "downtown." It is a cleverly configured shopping mall.

On a side note, I do like some of what the 27th St master plan has, the use of more high rises and mid rises for office space, but there is still a lot of open lawn space, and that will relagate it to "suburban auto-centric" to any urban planning minded person. I think that it actually reminds me a lot of Denver's Tech Center area, which is shared by Denver, and the neighboring suburbs of Greenwood Village, and Littleton. It creates a second skyline for Denver with several office and hotel high rises, but the street pattern is strictly suburban, it's no threat to downtown Denver.

[brewcityfan]

Originally Posted by Milwaukee, WY

Alright Brew,

I grew up in Greenfield, and my parents still live there, so I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who does really appreciate the suburbs for what they are. Suburbs are what they are, I will pass no judgement on that. I think that building more walkable communities is commendable. What I don't think you realize here is that Fountains is a wholly private development. You (and I mean developers) can't create a "downtown". What it really is, is a shopping mall that looks like a downtown. It's still a destination that most will get to by car. Yes, there may be some residential mixed in, but even the nearby residents are likely to have to drive some distance to get to work. A true downtown of the type that were built in this country prior to WWII, were not built in 18 months by a single private developer and stocked with national chain stores. This is why despite the Disneyland architecture and parking meters, Bayshore TC is not a "downtown." It is a cleverly configured shopping mall.

On a side note, I do like some of what the 27th St master plan has, the use of more high rises and mid rises for office space, but there is still a lot of open lawn space, and that will relagate it to "suburban auto-centric" to any urban planning minded person. I think that it actually reminds me a lot of Denver's Tech Center area, which is shared by Denver, and the neighboring suburbs of Greenwood Village, and Littleton. It creates a second skyline for Denver with several office and hotel high rises, but the street pattern is strictly suburban, it's no threat to downtown Denver.

First, I just would like to say THANK YOU for at least

1. Keeping an open mind
2. Holding back whatever bias you may have
3. Stating your opinions without having to offend or jab the other side in the process

I agree that downtowns aren't created by one single developer in this instance. But comparing such a decent development to strip-mall material is a bit frustrating to say the least. You got it right when you said most will have to travel by car to get to work and such - but what this development is doing will provide other means of travel...especially for the nearby subdivisions behind it. Until something of mass transit gets proposed that is satisfactory to suburbanites, there will always be some condescending attitudes between urban believers and their suburban counterparts concerning the development-transit ideals. We can both at least say The Fountains won't look like Bayshore concerning the "Disneyland" architecture you mentioned.

Concerning 27th Street - once again, thank you for your opinion. I think this will serve Milwaukee and its metro area well, and will provide more opportunities for companies to enter the Milwaukee area to test us out. I also agree with you on the lawn part of it.....and that's something I took note of.

[brewcityfan]

Another public market!

WEDNESDAY, June 20, 2007, 4:13 p.m.
By Dave Fidlin

Daily Market gets green light
Three entities have come to a mutual developer's agreement for the Daily Market, crystallizing months of discussion about its feasibility in Cudahy.

Two of the three parties, the Community Development Authority and developer MK Realty LLC, approved the terms of the agreement on Monday. The Common Council, representing the city, gave its approval Tuesday.

The Daily Market is to be part of a larger mixed-use facility on land that will be redeveloped on two city-owned lots at the northwest and southwest corner of Packard Avenue and Library Drive.

MK officials said they hope to feature an array of vendors at the Daily Market, including butchers, fine chocolatiers and fish mongers, plus a wine store, coffee shop and deli.

As outlined in the agreement, construction on the complex is to begin Oct. 1 and be completed by April 1, 2009.

[brewcityfan]

Milwaukee's suburban real estate roundup, thanks to the Business Journal.

Developer finally gets approval for $15 million apartment complex
The Business Journal of Milwaukee - June 22, 2007 by Pete Millard
After a year of negotiating with Glendale aldermen and residents, David Cunningham finally has the zoning designation he needs to move ahead on his $15 million, 100-unit apartment complex for West Mill Road.

The Glendale Plan Commission turned down Cunningham's original request for a 164-unit apartment building on the 7-acre former manufacturing site in the 2300 block of West Mill Road. Density and traffic issues created a concern among neighbors, said Richard Maslowski, Glendale's city administrator.

Cunningham, whose company, Northland Development L.L.C., owns and manages more than a dozen apartment and commercial properties in southeast Wisconsin, scaled back his plan and purchased an additional acre to lower the density of the project from 17 units per acre to 14 units per acre.

With the revised plan, the Glendale Common Council approved rezoning the land June 11 from light manufacturing to multi-family residential.

"Now our challenge is to design a building that can be successful and that the neighbors will like," Cunningham said.

Northland Development's proposal calls for constructing two four-unit townhouses along West Mill Road and a 92-unit apartment building behind the townhouses.

The complex is designed to attract families, said Maslowski. The project, which is being designed by Torke Wirth Pujara Architects, Elm Grove, will include a garden, play areas, a fitness center and community center. The complex will also include an underground garage for about 166 cars and a surface parking lot that will hold more than 100 cars.

According to the plans currently under review, the 92-unit building will have two and three bedrooms in four wings, said Maslowski. Monthly rents for the apartment will range from $1,200 to $1,500. The northwest and northeast wings of the building will be two stories. The rest of the building will be three stories.

While the city has approved the project's rezoning request, Northland Development still has to get approval for the design of the building from the Glendale Plan Commission.

"We're cautiously optimistic this will get done," Cunningham said.


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Pabst Farms condos approved
Pabst Farms Development Inc. has received approval for the design of the Village Crossing at Pabst Farms from the Oconomowoc Plan Commission.

The 144-unit condo development, one of four residential components of the 1,500-acre Pabst Farms master-planned community, will include 72 buildings spread out over 32 acres. Pabst Farms is located at Interstate 94 and Highway 67.

The other residential areas at Pabst Farms are Eastlake Village, an area with 170 single-family lots; Lake Country Village, an area planned for 205 lots; and Interlaken Village, an area on the far eastern end of the development planned for 26 one-acre lots.

The Pabst Farms developers and their architectural firm, Bloodgood Sharp Buster Architects & Planners Inc., Palatine, Ill., will make another appearance at the Plan Commission in August for a final review of the proposed project.


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Shorewood to get mixed-use project
Wired Properties hopes to begin construction on its proposed four-story project in Shorewood in the fall that will add 23 condominiums and 5,000 square feet of retail to the 4500 block of North Oakland Avenue.

Wired was selected by the village as part of a request for proposal process initiated last fall to develop the village-owned vacant lot on North Oakland. Blair Williams, president of Milwaukee-based Wired, is negotiating to buy the land through a developer's agreement with the village. The condos will range in size from 900 to 2,000 square feet and cost up to $300,000.


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Richfield firm buys land near Cabela's
Germantown Iron & Steel Corp., Richfield, has acquired 6 acres from the Jackson Business Park on Alcan Drive in the village of Jackson for $315,000.

The company has no immediate plans to expand its operations at 3040 Highway 145, across the street from Cabela's Richfield store. Growth in the company's structural steel, stairs, rails and ornamental iron business may necessitate a new location in the future.

The acquisition of the land in Jackson was handled by Mark Schnoll, a broker with Inland Cos. Inc., Milwaukee.

[NLouisianaJay]

14.6% GROWTH SINCE 2000
Franklin sees population boom, census data show
U.S. Census Bureau figures released Wednesday show Franklin's estimated population is 33,812, an increase of more than 4,000 people, or 14.6%, since the 2000 census. The percentage increase is the largest among cities of more than 20,000 in southeastern Wisconsin. More »

[brewcityfan]

Originally Posted by NLouisianaJay

14.6% GROWTH SINCE 2000
Franklin sees population boom, census data show
U.S. Census Bureau figures released Wednesday show Franklin's estimated population is 33,812, an increase of more than 4,000 people, or 14.6%, since the 2000 census. The percentage increase is the largest among cities of more than 20,000 in southeastern Wisconsin. More »

I guess that shows that nowhere in SE Wisconsin is suburban growth being slowed. I also add, that this growth is happening in a community where people complain about taxes 24/7. Very interesting.

[DooMer_MP3]

Originally Posted by Milwaukee, WY

Alright Brew,

I grew up in Greenfield, and my parents still live there, so I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who does really appreciate the suburbs for what they are. Suburbs are what they are, I will pass no judgement on that. I think that building more walkable communities is commendable. What I don't think you realize here is that Fountains is a wholly private development. You (and I mean developers) can't create a "downtown". What it really is, is a shopping mall that looks like a downtown. It's still a destination that most will get to by car. Yes, there may be some residential mixed in, but even the nearby residents are likely to have to drive some distance to get to work. A true downtown of the type that were built in this country prior to WWII, were not built in 18 months by a single private developer and stocked with national chain stores. This is why despite the Disneyland architecture and parking meters, Bayshore TC is not a "downtown." It is a cleverly configured shopping mall.

Very well said. These town centers sprouting up are definitely a more appealing version of your typical mall, though. And I tend to give Bayshore a nod, because Whitefish Bay, being an older suburb, definitely follows a much more urban landscape. The plots of land are small, the housing is dense and on a grid system... neighborhood retail scattered about etc.

Where in Greenfield are you from? Did you go to GHS? Class of '97 here lol.

[DooMer_MP3]

Originally Posted by brewcityfan

I guess that shows that nowhere in SE Wisconsin is suburban growth being slowed. I also add, that this growth is happening in a community where people complain about taxes 24/7. Very interesting.

Tell me about it. I wonder how many days can go by without the word "taxes" being used lol.

[brewcityfan]

Originally Posted by DooMer_MP3

Tell me about it. I wonder how many days can go by without the word "taxes" being used lol.

Unfortunately that's how officials get elected. False promises are key I guess. People must not care, since they are still moving in at a great rate. It's a bit disgusting.

[brewcityfan]

Could be good, or bad, news for Southridge

Greendale to push Simon to redevelop Southridge
The Business Journal of Milwaukee - June 29, 2007 by Rich Kirchen

Village of Greendale officials hope to meet in the next two months with the new owners of Southridge Mall to discuss both "re-positioning" the mall with higher-caliber retailers and the possibility of developing the land surrounding the shopping center.

Simon Property Group Inc., Indianapolis, and Farallon Capital Management, San Francisco, closed in April on their $1.64 billion purchase of The Mills Corp., Chevy Chase, Md., which owned 37 malls, including Southridge. Executives with Simon, the largest mall owner in the country, expect to announce plans for the Mills properties in 60 to 90 days, said spokesman Les Morris.

"We're still very much in the evaluation mode," he said.

Simon sent representatives to Southridge to evaluate the property and held introductory meetings with Greendale officials, said Joe Murray, Greendale village manager.

Village officials have focused on the 37-year-old, 1.4-million-square-foot enclosed mall since the departure of one anchor, Younker's, in 2000. They created a $2.5 million business improvement district for a facelift of the space, which now is home to Steve & Barry's, Linens 'n Things and Cost Plus World Market. The 100-acre property at 5300 S. 76th St. is the village's largest taxpayer.

Village president John Hermes said Simon executives have promised to meet with village officials to discuss their concerns that Southridge is falling behind other Milwaukee-area malls that have been redeveloped, such as Bayshore Town Center in Glendale and Brookfield Square in Brookfield.

While village officials realize the mall's direction is ultimately Simon's decision, they are optimistic about discussing the remaining 50,000-square-foot vacancy in the Younker's space and possible conversion of the massive parking lots into other uses.

"We see a great potential for Southridge to improve upon its stature," Murray said.

[benscrape]

I will say Simon will have their hands full on how to revamp Southridge especially as it has become a very low tier shopping center compared to Mayfair, Bayshore and Brookfield Square. What kind of tenents they will try to attract with any plans they draw up is unknown. I know the mall and Greendale especially want more upscale retailers at the mall. But I don't know how many of the upscale stores that are in the other malls are going to add another store here (exempt is Pabst Farms as that will most likely end up as Mayfair 2). Will some add stores, most definetly yes, but who, I don't know. For more upscale retailers to come in to Southridge, Simon will have to aggressively try to advertise to Muskego, Oak Creek, Franklin where money is. If you ask around, alot of people from those communities shop at the other malls in the metro area. (this is strictly a response to attracting higher-end retail)

I know item number 1 for Simon will be to fill in the remaining empty space in the Younkers building since Greendale has been pushing to fill it for years. Who will go in there who knows.

For filling in Southridge around it, I can see parking garages in the future. Southridge will not be chopped up into pieces to form a town center like look because the building is too massive, 2 stories and on uneven terrain, its not as simple as Bayshore was. But I do see either indoor wing additions or lifestyle additions added to the building. You look at alot of Simon's mall properties they own, they do alot of lifestyle additions to the mall.

[brewcityfan]

Originally Posted by benscrape

I will say Simon will have their hands full on how to revamp Southridge especially as it has become a very low tier shopping center compared to Mayfair, Bayshore and Brookfield Square. What kind of tenents they will try to attract with any plans they draw up is unknown. I know the mall and Greendale especially want more upscale retailers at the mall. But I don't know how many of the upscale stores that are in the other malls are going to add another store here (exempt is Pabst Farms as that will most likely end up as Mayfair 2). Will some add stores, most definetly yes, but who, I don't know. For more upscale retailers to come in to Southridge, Simon will have to aggressively try to advertise to Muskego, Oak Creek, Franklin where money is. If you ask around, alot of people from those communities shop at the other malls in the metro area. (this is strictly a response to attracting higher-end retail)

I know item number 1 for Simon will be to fill in the remaining empty space in the Younkers building since Greendale has been pushing to fill it for years. Who will go in there who knows.

For filling in Southridge around it, I can see parking garages in the future. Southridge will not be chopped up into pieces to form a town center like look because the building is too massive, 2 stories and on uneven terrain, its not as simple as Bayshore was. But I do see either indoor wing additions or lifestyle additions added to the building. You look at alot of Simon's mall properties they own, they do alot of lifestyle additions to the mall.

That's why Franklin now has become extremely aggressive in luring developers for upscale retail development. I have spoke with the developer of Fountains of Franklin, and there are definitely upscale retail interested in his area. Also, upscale dining options as well.

The Franklin mayor already firmly believes that Franklin can and will become better than Brookfield in demographics. While I think it's a bit cocky, after reviewing some estate subdivisions proposed in Franklin - they have homes nearly triple the size of our current most affluent homes.

NML, Wheaton Francisican, and the future of the Business Park and 27th Street will lead to more and bigger companies moving in, with tons of money behind it.

Southridge needs to jump on the bandwagon NOW before it turns into another Northridge.

[Jesse276]

Originally Posted by brewcityfan

The Franklin mayor already firmly believes that Franklin can and will become better than Brookfield in demographics. While I think it's a bit cocky, after reviewing some estate subdivisions proposed in Franklin - they have homes nearly triple the size of our current most affluent homes.

I disagree a little bit with Franklin overtaking Brookfield. There are some things that Brookfield has that Franklin is a long way from touching. First of all, the population is relatively affluent in Brookfield, but there also a lot of people.

The population of Brookfield is approximately 40,000, then you have similiarily affluent Tosa next door with 45,000. Then you have to look at the daytime population of the area which is huge because the area has the 2nd highest office/services cluster in the metro. Then you have to look at the fact that the area is geographically in the middle of the metro, convenient to the most people, on average, wherever they live in the Milwaukee metro area.

I'm sure Franklin will see strong demand for upscale retail developments, but the area won't be able to support an uber upscale mall.

[Skyking2]

Originally Posted by Jesse276

I disagree a little bit with Franklin overtaking Brookfield. There are some things that Brookfield has that Franklin is a long way from touching. First of all, the population is relatively affluent in Brookfield, but there also a lot of people.

The population of Brookfield is approximately 40,000, then you have similiarily affluent Tosa next door with 45,000. Then you have to look at the daytime population of the area which is huge because the area has the 2nd highest office/services cluster in the metro. Then you have to look at the fact that the area is geographically in the middle of the metro, convenient to the most people, on average, wherever they live in the Milwaukee metro area.

I'm sure Franklin will see strong demand for upscale retail developments, but the area won't be able to support an uber upscale mall.

Sorry, but you're far off base comparing the average wealth of Brookfield residents vs. Wauwatosa residents. As Tosa sees more encroachment from the East, original or long-time residents of Tosa have moved, or are moving, further West and Northwest: Brookfield, Waukesha, Pewaukee, Sussex, Menomonee Falls -- and even further West and NW. And, believe it or not, while Franklin's HH income is not quite with Brookfield's yet, it's getting there...and probably closer than Tosa's these days.

[brewcityfan]

Originally Posted by Jesse276

I disagree a little bit with Franklin overtaking Brookfield. There are some things that Brookfield has that Franklin is a long way from touching. First of all, the population is relatively affluent in Brookfield, but there also a lot of people.

The population of Brookfield is approximately 40,000, then you have similiarily affluent Tosa next door with 45,000. Then you have to look at the daytime population of the area which is huge because the area has the 2nd highest office/services cluster in the metro. Then you have to look at the fact that the area is geographically in the middle of the metro, convenient to the most people, on average, wherever they live in the Milwaukee metro area.

I'm sure Franklin will see strong demand for upscale retail developments, but the area won't be able to support an uber upscale mall.

Wow. A great response without the need of questioning my sanity. I'm impressed!

Now, to my opinion...

I agree with some of your points, because yes indeed Brookfield and Tosa are in the middle of the metro. However, I don't think that means an upscale mall cannot be located off the middle.

I think if northern Racine county (which is mostly undeveloped) gets a big boom of upscale subdivisions, condos, etc....there will be demand for upscale malls without having to travel 30 mins+ to get there.

Also, the 27th Street corridor, along with Franklin's Ryan Road developments, could lead to a major office cluster that will have high paying jobs. NML could have up to 4 phases. Wheaton's campus in Franklin along 27th Street also could have up to 4 phases in development. The YMCA will lure more in the physical medical field.

Oak Creek's side is still up for grabs - currently Liberty wants to build an office park by 27th and I-94. There's a large mixed use campus being proposed for 27th and Puetz on OC's side. The urban village across from NML could be the true upscale mall - so to speak. Right now Franklin developers don't have anything comparable to mall standards, but they're getting there.

Franklin's population by 2020 was supposed to be 45,000. Right now, that'll probably be passed in half the time if we grow as fast as recently. Oak Creek's population was supposed to be 60,000 by 2020 (probably thanks to the large manufacturing base)

So, I guess the question is - can it be feasible?

[benscrape]

I'll say Franklin's overall HH income is moving up but I don't see it overtaking Brookfield anytime soon. Its possible they could one day. Who knows. But at the rate its growing, it will become one of the more affluent suburbs of Milwaukee. Oak Creek won't even be close to 60,000 by 2020. Wisconsin DOA projects only 44,000 by 2020. ANd our HH income has steadily been rising, I think the highest I saw was $63,000 (I'll have to recheck sources). If thats true, I can see Oak Creek between $65,000-$70,000 by 2010. I'd post Franklin's but have no numbers right now.

I'm not overly impressed so far with Liberty's proposal. Its supposed to be a green project, which is good, but it only consists of a business warehouse, a couple retail buildings and 1 story office buildings, which the latter, don't fit into the 27th St. corridor plan, which calls for minimum 2-stories. They've been told several times by Oak Creek officials to redesign the development because it didn't match the architecture of Franklin's side, pretty much the mayor and alderman saying "we don't want to be the dumping ground to Franklin." That statement was made in reference to the high quality design of projects in Franklin. We want equal.

I don't see Franklin getting a mall size development due to the proximity of Southridge. But numerous smaller developments like Fountains will be more common. The urban village is supposed to be mall like. It could become the mall for the southern part of the metro, upscale maybe, but not close to Mayfair/Bayshore/Pabst Farms. I could see a mall with stores similarly found at lifestyle malls in Illinois (Geneva Commons/Algonquin Commons/Deer Park Town Center).

But I'm still not overly impressed with the "urban village" design. Its still to spread and not more dense then I thought it would be. I hope the designs are tweaked with it.

For 27th St. in general, the video provides big visions for the corridor. Will we likely see it like that, I don't think so, but with having a big vision, it puts the pressure on developers to having high quality developments to be proposed. I can see an office cluster happen here, but its how the market will dictate that. It could be years before see anything like that.