Aviation-Greek Airline companies

[gm2263]

All I know is that Aegean has placed an order for a remarkable number of mid-range mid-sized jet commuters and obviously, expansion of its routes network should be seen as imminent.

Also, there is indeed a considerable issue with OA regarding the "unpopular" or "unfrequented" routes especially domestic which are kept as part of the social policy of the governments regarding isolated or remote borderline locations whose existence and connection with the "center" promotes "national interests" Sure these routes may not be profitable.

However, I don't believe that this is the main cause of trouble for OA as with better administration, am sure the profitable routes could "subsidize" the non-profitable ones. This strategy though would require better overall operational efficiency. Or else, as in our case, it becomes a dangerous luxury.

[Grk101]

Originally Posted by nmk2600

Does anyone know in depth which routes rae profitable for olympic airlines and which arent?

I believe that Aegean should have been serving by now routes that are very important and have little comtetition such as Paris, Istanbul, LHR, Moscow, Berlin, Zurich, brussels.

What do you guys think?

Also, does anyone knows if Aegean is planning to serve new destinations anytime soon?

I know that the NYC and London routes are very profitable for Olympic. I think Paris is also up there, as well as Thessaloníki obviously.

[SonOfSparta]

Personally, I always enjoyed travelling on Olympic, my only fustration is that from Toronto we stop off in Montreal for one hour instead of going direct to Athens. The planes are new and they have a great safety record, and I have always had good experience with the service. I don't believe in blaming unions for Olympic's financial difficulties. The problem is you have government officials running a business, so please don't blame the workers!!!! How many government officials take seats without paying for them? The problem with the Greek airline is you either have a socialist government trying to run it with no buisness experience, or a bunch of right-wingers who would sell their own kids to foreigners just to make a buck or two. I have no doubt Nea Democratia would love to ruin this airline so they get sell off the pieces to their international corporate 'friends'. Also with the new open sky policy, the big multinational corporations are now in a position to swallow up all the smaller airlines all over Europe. I am sure Onassis is spinning in his grave.

[gm2263]

I am not really sure about what Onassis does right now. After all, he is the one who said that OA is a bucket full of s*** and at the right time he will get rid of it. As he did, actually.

Also, I agree about not blaming the workers but up to a point. If they have been half as gutsy in striking about the need for reasoned management instead of asking for pay raises, some of the evils of the last ten years might have been avoided. But they didn't do so in order to not displease their political patrons so in this sense they are responsible too for what is happening.

Also, I don't understand why do I have to be so compassionate about many -not all- of them at the moment that I have no steady job right now and I have NEVER enjoyed the type of security, benefits and remuneration they enjoyed. I know for a fact they don't give a flying f*** whether I live or die for that matter. And obviously I am not talking about the pilots or the cabin crews here but about some rodents that had a veeery long party with my money. I am their employer and I have been tolerant enough with my money spent out of the window and then having every minister trying to tax me more and more so that they can continue to act so disrespectfully.

People DO lose jobs if their company does not perform well, you know... Especially people from North America should know that. Pity, for Olympic was a good airline...

...when most of the visitors here probably weren't even born yet...

[SonOfSparta]

Olympic is not just another company in Greece, it is the national air carrier, whether you like it or not, it represents Greece internationally. That's why I always fly it, to support Greece. Letting it collapse is a bigger mistake than mismanaging the company. GM2263 you state, "I have NEVER enjoyed the type of security, benefits and remuneration they enjoyed. I know for a fact they don't give a flying f*** whether I live or die for that matter." Do you think if Olympic dissolves and foreigner owned airliners dominate Greece they will care about you anymore? Also if more companies in Greece offered that type of job security, more of its citizens would enjoy a better standard of living. Globalization is destroying national companies who no longer feel the obligation to create jobs at home. These multinationals want people to work for less and have the ability to import cheap goods from third world countries. It's not just Olympic but all small airliners that are being squeezed by big airliners who want to dominate the market by being able to fly and land anywhere. If the consumer wins with lower prices they loose by having foreign ownership and having good paying jobs with benefits outsourced to other nations. Olympic is in a critical state, but dissolving it would do much more harm to the Greek economy. This current Greek government is having a fire sale on anything the state owns and one day everyone in Greece will wake up to airliners and national ports owned and controlled by foreigners. I can't believe this government is stupid enough to sell the ports of Greece, one of the main gateways to Europe!!!! The country doesn't need foreign ownership, what it needs is good management and a control system put in place to prosecute political corruption in state enterprises.

[neorion]

SoS, it's all very well to be patriotic and such, even tho that's a bit out-dated in this global day and age, but the basic facts are that if a business can not make a profit, or even worse, continually makes a loss, then it can't and mustn't stay in business. That's the brutal, fundamental principles of business and the world we live in. Olympic hasn't some God given divine right to coninue operating, especially since the service leaves much to be desired and it costs the Greek tax-payer so much money to keep it afloat. It doesn't make sense for it to continue this way and if it doesn't give itself a 'soft landing', it's going to be in for a mighty and abrupt 'free-fall'. Other countries, such as Belguim have had to do away with their national carriers for the same reason, Greece has to abandon this jingoist it's our 'national carrier' mentality, and the fear of 'foreign ownership', which is a bit rich considering Greece's investments and ownership of businesses in other countries. Would you like other countries to not allow Greeks to own businesses in their markets? For starters that's against EU principles of an open market and furthermore, foreign ownership could bring much needed good management and professionalism, so often lacking in Greek enterprises today, especially in the much maligned public sector!!

[1821]

Oh shut up you troll. Nobody cares what you have to say, pretender.

[SonOfSparta]

I am in agreement that Olympic must change direction to stay in business. I however do not buy into the argument that Greece should not have a national carrier. Here in Canada we lost one large carrier known as Canadian Pacific it later became Canadian and later on became non-existent. Similar to the arguments in Greece, it was mismanaged, it lost money etc... So now Canada is left with Air Canada as the only truly large airline company in the country. With the open skies agreement, who knows how it will continue? We are 32 million in Canada verses 300 million in the US. The Canadian government has gone in several times over the years to financially assist the airline.

But this is my problem with all the free market types; they keep saying how wonderful competition is for everyone, how good free trade is, how bad state businesses are, and how 'global' the world is becoming. So what happens, at the beginning of switching to a more free market, well prices come down, but once state enterprises disappear and foreign multinationals dominate your market then what? How good can that possibly be for the citizens of a country? If airlines, the energy sector, communications and education can be opened up, what's next your military and government? IMO multinationals dominating key industries of the country doesn't benefit the little guy, not the consumer and not the nation. Globalization is sold worldwide in part by making your (neorion) arguments providing 'much needed good management and professionalism' but once your nation starts loosing middle and upper scale jobs to foreigners its game over, you are no longer a country but a dominion to one of the super powers.

Of course Britain and the USA favour open skies just like free markets, but that's only so they could get into small markets and dominate them. Has globalization brought wealth to poor nations? Of course not. If small countries try to sell cheaper agricultural products to the USA, then the American government calls it dumping and imposes restrictions, example Canadian lumber sold in the US. In other words the Brits and Americans only want free trade when it benefits them. The global media picks up the news stories of Olympic Airlines being in trouble to reinforce and prepare the public for its dismantling. Who dominates the global media? The same corporate types telling us Olympic is mismanaged, the open skies agreement is good, and that Greece should sell its national carrier. The Greek government and more importantly the citizens of Greece should be cautious and not sell off a business that can potentially make the nation both proud and turn a profit.

[neorion]

Yes, but the point is, that it's not turning a profit, and not making the nation proud, on the contrary. With all due respect, if the Greek maritime fleet, the world's biggest, were to adopt your views; anti-globalisation, protectionism etc...well quite frankly they'd be farked and not the world leaders that they are. Anyway, I really don't see any 'glory' in having a national carrier, especially one that doesn't represent the nation in the 'best light'. A nation should pursue its economic strengths and not certain unprofitable businesses for the misguided sake of national pride. Sounds like old-time nationalism to me!!

[SonOfSparta]

I'll take old-time nationalism any day of the week over modern day globalization that promotes foreign controlled ports and airlines. As I stated before I agree Olympic is mismanaged, but that doesn't mean we should sell the business. Also I am not suggesting there should be no foreign competition, I simply believe the big multinational corporations shouldn't get total control of key state industries like Olympic or the ports.

In regards to the Greek maritime to the best of my knowledge they don't own an other country's fleet, they merely trade throughout the world.

BTW, as we have been exchanging our opinions I have to say great Avatar, that red arm chair looks very much like a Bauhaus inspired design.

[NickyF]

Firstly, as my family continue to pay tax in Hellas I don't mind some of our tax $ going towards propping up OA.....in the short term anyway.

Secondly, while the Greek government is busy trying to shut down OA, in Italy
Berlusconi has promised to take EU Commission head on to ensure that the Alitalia continues to fly over Italian skys......despite similar calls for Alitalia to be closed.

OA can be saved, but the Government cannot afford to take on the EU Commission, local unions and other groups with vested interests at this stage.

[gm2263]

The point is:

IF we were talking about another company with a good business record and proof that its management has done anything in good faith (what is called "fiduciary duties of directors" in the UK legal terminology) to prevent the current situation I too would be sympathetic. OA has the best possible trademark a Greek company could have. It has a close to perfect security record and the flying crews are top-notch.

However, the company as an entity and despite the isolated efforts of some few good men, seems to be lacking what we call "social responsibility" in the sense of serving the public. Neither its employees instead of protecting their prerogatives tried to draw the public's attention to the nepotist and party-political exploitation of OA. On the contrary, they shut their mouths because they didn't want to raise against their patrons. Now the time has come for everyone to stand up and assume its responsibilities.

I would like OA to fly. Like I said, its trademark is unbeatable. However, the wrongdoings of EVERYONE involved either actively or by their silence are so loud (what a semantic contradiction) that I doubt that there is left anything healthy to save, except from some honest bread-winners who continued to stand up for their values and beliefs in a much negative environment.

Unfortunately, the company has to see so many dramatic changes and so many prerogatives are to be lost that it won't be the same anymore, it cannot remain as is.

I wish many people employed in the private sector had half the chances OA employees have enjoyed in the past. The fact though that they refused to act in a socially responsible manner (strikes, strikes, strikes...) and assume any notion of social accountability has its price. As for a logo and "national" carrier, Aegean airlines is doing quite well isn't it?

Sorry if I disagree on that but in Greece as anywhere else in the civilized world, we must learn to respect public money or else, let the axe fall. I wish I could feel differently but I don't.

...and I hate arguing with fallow forumers here and SoS forgive my acute style, it is not directed towards you or any other participant here. I fully respect you but had you been living in Greece you would have understood what I am talking about. No offense though, I respect your opinion as I do for everybody else's here.

[SonOfSparta]

No need to apologize for your stand gm2263. It's only through these forums we can all learn more and listen to others opinions. Besides your right I don't live in Greece, so obviously I cannot be as familiar as you are with all the internal details of OA, or the view that the general Greek public has on this matter, I can only tell you my experience and the diaspora's view from my perspective in Canada.

[gm2263]

And respectable your opinion is as my best friend in Athens is a Torontonian girl married to an excellent man so at least I know the principles most of the Greek Canadians grow up with.

Unfortunately, while Greeks in Canada are in most cases an honor to their country and themselves, Greeks in Greece try to infringe on the merits attached to the identity of being a Greek without paying their dues in hard work and respect to their country. And this is what makes me angry.

True, many aspects of the so-called "globalization" ARE indeed a laughing matter as they try to level off 6000 years of written history overnight. On the other hand though, it is thanks to globalization that we may get a chance as a species to solve many of our big problems by sharing knowledge and a common understanding to things. Unfortunately, many OA employees did not share this view and have forgotten the importance of a visitor and the word "philoxenia" along with the sacred connotations it entails.

Even if OA remains, it means that it has to be "sanitized" and cleaned off the sources of this anomaly which is an attractor to high debts, inefficient services and management.

Now if you asked me, deep inside me I know that it is the governments of the last 34 years that poured first blood since it is through them that this aura of sickness started to abound. However, from a point onwards, there has really been a collusion between the political parties and the syndicate leaders and OA was used as a welfare service towards voters instead of an airline that was supposed to proudly carry the national colors to the five continents.

The solution may be painful but has to be applied. Otherwise, the foreign investors WILL eventually buy its slots, equipment, planes etc as scrap metal after liquidation and throw away ALL the employees or recruit them anew on a "zero basis", and all that without any sense of social responsibility. At least now the government tries to sell it BEFORE the seemingly imminent liquidation to capitalize on whatever added value and goodwill it still has and eventually save more jobs compared to the bleak scenarios, since, one way or another to sack people from their jobs also entails a HUGE social responsibility. All that could have been avoided had the Greek state proceeded to the right thing in the right time in which case downsizing might have NOT involved layoffs.

Too sad and too bad though, I flew in and out of the US several times with OA and I was lucky to be in their "good days". Their timing and service was good... back then.

[GrigorisSokratis]

Τον Απρίλιο η νέα Ολυμπιακή

Ικανοποίηση προκαλεί στην Αθήνα η πληροφορία ότι το Κολλέγιο των Επιτρόπων της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης αναμένεται να εγκρίνει την Τετάρτη το σχέδιο εξυγίανσης της Ολυμπιακής. Σύμφωνα με την πρόταση που έχει υποβάλει το Υπουργείο Μεταφορών και Επικοινωνιών, η εταιρεία "Πάνθεον" θα απορροφήσει σταδιακά το πτητικό έργο των ολυμπιακών αερογραμμών, καθώς και το όνομα και το σήμα. Στη συνέχεια θα δημιουργηθεί μια νέα Ολυμπιακή με το ίδιο όνομα και σήμα μικρότερη από τη σημερινή. Ο Κωστής Χατζηδάκης επανέλαβε ότι διασφαλίζονται οι άγονες γραμμές και οι θέσεις των εργαζομένων, οι οποίοι αντιδρούν έντονα στα σχεδία και τις ιδιωτικοποιήσεις της εταιρείας.

Διασφαλίζονται οι εργαζόμενοι

Τον Απρίλιο του 2009 ανοίγει φτερά η νέα Oλυμπιακή Aεροπορία υπό την σκεπή ιδιώτη επενδύτη και απαλλαγμένη από κάθε χρέος.

Η νέα εταιρεία θα είναι σε μέγεθος στα 2/ 3 της σημερινής, θα διατηρήσει το ίδιο όνομα και σήμα, θα πραγματοποιεί όλα τα δρομολόγια αγόνων γραμμών, τα περισσότερα από τα δρομολόγια εσωτερικού και τα βασικά δρομολόγια του εξωτερικού.

Ο υπουργός Μεταφορών και Επικοινωνιών, Κωστής Χατζηδάκης, αναφερόμενος στην επικείμενη απόφαση του Κολλεγίου των επιτρόπων σημείωσε, ότι η Ολυμπιακή είναι η πιο ζημιογόνα εταιρεία στην Ευρώπη σε σχέση με το μέγεθος της και η μόνη σε ολόκληρη της Ευρώπη που παραμένει 100% υπό κρατική ιδιοκτησία.

Στόχος της κυβέρνησης είναι η δημιουργία μιας νέας εταιρίας που θα κρατάει το όνομα και το σήμα της σημερινής, απαλλάσσοντας παράλληλα τους φορολογούμενους από τα χρέη, τόνισε, ενώ επανέλαβε ότι οι εργαζόμενοι "δεν έχουν κανένα λόγο να ανησυχούν, γιατί η κυβέρνηση θα συμπεριφερθεί με λογική και ευαισθησία".

Οι 5000 μόνιμοι εργαζόμενοι στην Ολυμπιακή θα έχουν τρεις επιλογές

- εθελουσίας εξόδου όσοι έχουν άνω των 6000 ενσήμων, ( διασφαλίζοντας μπόνους και πλήρη συνταξιοδοτικά δικαιώματα)
-μετάταξη σε άλλη υπηρεσία του δημοσίου με τις ίδιες αποδοχές,
-πρόσληψη στη νέα εταιρεία με συμβάσεις που θα υπογραφούν από μηδενική βάση.

Παράλληλα για τους τρεις χιλιάδες συμβασιούχους εργαζόμενους προβλέπεται μοριοδοτηση.

Ο ιδιώτης επενδυτής παραλαμβάνει τη νέα Ολυμπιακή με μηδενικό αριθμό εργαζομένων και αποφασίζει αυτός πόσους και ποιους θα προσλάβει.

Η επίσημη ανακοίνωση της Κομισιόν αναμένεται αύριο το μεσημέρι και αμέσως μετά ο ο κ. Χατζηδάκης, σε συνέντευξη Τύπου, θα ανακοινώσει σε ποια λύση έχει οδηγηθεί η Κυβέρνηση.

Νωρίτερα ο ζήτημα της Ολυμπιακής θα βρεθεί και στο επίκεντρο της Κυβερνητικής Επιτροπής η οποία θα συνεδριάσει στις 11.00 για θέματα που αφορούν το Υπουργείο Μεταφορών και Επικοινωνιών.

Το αναμενόμενο πράσινο φως από την Κομισιόν για την ιδιωτικοποίηση της Ολυμπιακής άνοιξε τον ασκό του Αιόλου για τους εργαζόμενους . Οι τεχνικοί πραγματοποίησαν πορεία στην πίστα αεροδρόμιου "Ελευθέριος Βενιζέλος".

Αύριο Τρίτη η ομοσπονδία συλλόγων πολιτικής αεροπορίας πραγματοποιεί έκτακτο συνέδριο προκείμενου να αποφασιστούν οι περαιτέρω αντιδράσεις, στις οποίες όμως δε περιλαμβάνονται απεργιακές κινητοποιήσεις.

Πολιτικές αντιδράσεις

Την ίδια ώρα έντονες είναι οι αντιδράσεις των κομμάτων για τη λύση που προωθεί η κυβέρνηση για την εξυγίανση της Ολυμπιακής.

"Ο νεοφιλελεύθερος κατήφορος της Ν.Δ. αφαιρεί από τη χώρα κάθε δυνατότητα να ρυθμίζει αυτόνομα και αναπτυξιακά για στρατηγικές πολιτικές στις επικοινωνίες και τις μεταφορές. Πρόκειται για μια ιδιαίτερα σκληρή και επικίνδυνη πολιτική που δοκιμάσθηκε και απέτυχε οικτρά σε κάθε χώρα που εφαρμόσθηκε" τόνισε ο Συνασπισμός.

[1821]

Its been approved by the EU commission.
But they still need to pay back the 850 million euros to the Greek government.

[ellis896]

well thats great news!!!
something hellenic that will stay and not dissappear for hopefully ever!
like i said in the past though im not satisfied with olympic airways service but im happy that hasn't closed or bankrupt or maybe shut down or whatever want to say like other airline(s) for example XL Airways,Alitalia

[1821]

Aegean Airlines has won the ERA(European Regions Airline Association) Airline of the Year award for 2008/2009.

They have actually continually been getting awards.
2000/1, 2004/5, 2005/6, 2006/7.


http://www.eraa.org/inside-era/award...eoftheyear.php

[lvan]

Olympics A340 planes are 9 years old and going in their 10th year. Just so you have an idea. They got them late 1999. The front cabin premium seats are so spacious.

Originally Posted by SonOfSparta

Olympic is not just another company in Greece, it is the national air carrier, whether you like it or not, it represents Greece internationally. That's why I always fly it, to support Greece. Letting it collapse is a bigger mistake than mismanaging the company. GM2263 you state, "I have NEVER enjoyed the type of security, benefits and remuneration they enjoyed. I know for a fact they don't give a flying f*** whether I live or die for that matter." Do you think if Olympic dissolves and foreigner owned airliners dominate Greece they will care about you anymore? Also if more companies in Greece offered that type of job security, more of its citizens would enjoy a better standard of living. Globalization is destroying national companies who no longer feel the obligation to create jobs at home. These multinationals want people to work for less and have the ability to import cheap goods from third world countries. It's not just Olympic but all small airliners that are being squeezed by big airliners who want to dominate the market by being able to fly and land anywhere. If the consumer wins with lower prices they loose by having foreign ownership and having good paying jobs with benefits outsourced to other nations. Olympic is in a critical state, but dissolving it would do much more harm to the Greek economy. This current Greek government is having a fire sale on anything the state owns and one day everyone in Greece will wake up to airliners and national ports owned and controlled by foreigners. I can't believe this government is stupid enough to sell the ports of Greece, one of the main gateways to Europe!!!! The country doesn't need foreign ownership, what it needs is good management and a control system put in place to prosecute political corruption in state enterprises.

[Grk101]

Originally Posted by lvan

Olympics A340 planes are 9 years old and going in their 10th year. Just so you have an idea. They got them late 1999. The front cabin premium seats are so spacious.

Which is still relatively young in terms of airplane years. Usually airplanes are retired when they reach 15-20 years. Sometimes longer. The B747's were around 20 years old when they were retired for the A340's.