London's Transport Infrastructure

[leverarch]

I removed Thameslink, as I just wanted to show services that terminate in London, and not through services. I'll include it in an enlarged map of the South East.

[sotonsi]

I like that latest version

[Rational Plan]

Just read the latest issue of Modern Rail.

Had an article on Croydon Tramlink and it's new trams and the potential future of expansion and investment.

There is not much more information compared to the London issue they did, but I'll include a few extras.

Currently they are focusing on upgrade of existing infrastructure to support a much more intensive service.

1st up is the new line 4 from Elmers end to Therepia lane.

Next is the double tracking of line between Mitcham and Mitcham junction, which is due this year. Currently the line can only take 8 trams an hour, with the double tracking, they should get it to 9 or 10 an hour.



To get to the desired 12 an hour they will need a second platform at Wimbledon. This is currently under discussion with Network Rail.

After that a large passing loop to Elmers end to get line 4 up to 8 trams an hour.

After that remaining single track sections would be eliminated with the mitcham flyover being the last tackled.

After this, it's looking like the next extension will be Crystal Palace, with cross party support and with other projects winding down, this looks like the next medium size project. The extension would require 8 more trams.

One option would be a medium size project would to Bromley, they could take over the spare track from Crystal Palace to Beckenham Junction, from there it would require street running.

I think the favourite option would be Wimbledon to Sutton via morden and modern tube to St Helier and then Sutton.

Any extensions along the A23 North or South, while carrying lots of passengers would be entirely street running along the only main road in the area. I get the impression he was experiencing flashbacks to the West London tramway when discussing this, plus Edinburgh must also way in his mind.

The most likely projects after Crystal Palace would be to increase capacity in Croydon town centre.

One would be a rebuild of West Croydon station, creating a new entrance by the Tramstop and more importantly creating a new two route between West and East Croydon via Dingwall Road, which would also serve the Station entrance and redevelopment plans for Croydon.

[Rational Plan]

Here are some maps of the most likely options. The blue lines show sections to be double tracked. The dark red new extensions. I've drawn the ones that seem most likely.

All stop locations are at best guess work, orange stations and brown lines are options.



Here is my best guess at a new two direction track route.

I'm not sure how you'd get to West Croydon as it's a bit cramped, but one solution is to loop round to the North over the tracks. The advantage it misses out the bus station and the one way streets that are filled with said buses. The disadvantage is that the new spur is only really effective for routes to the East.





Now onto the extensions!

Crystal Palace, the only extension that I feel that is definitely on, once they can find some money.





I've added one station here to the proposed route as it seems a shame to miss the sports centre and Harris Academy.

Bromley.

Once Crystal is built then it seems obvious to take over the bit between Crystal and Beckenham, extending a line after that becomes more problematic. If there was space the ideal route would be the existing rail route, as it avoids traffic. But short of double decking the route thats not going to happen. So it would need to be street running through congested roads and the steep slope into Bromley.



The most promising seems to be Sutton, mainly because it has a nice easy route, with most of the route either through parkland or wide central reservations. The only slightly difficult bit is Sutton town centre. Is the high street wide enough for trams or would one running have to be put in? Also, how close to Sutton station can you get it without getting snarled in the gyratory?





Potential loop to St Helier Hospital





Options for Morden town centre. Have the stop next to the tube, but snarl up the buses and other traffic on the main road, or have the line go along a neighbouring street?

[citybus]

I would've thought Bromley North to Grove Park is crying out for conversion to tram operation. If extending into Bromley is considered a priority then surely taking over the shuttle should be a long term aspiration

I know an extension to Biggin Hill is/was under consideration, seems too far into the countryside really, but extending a further stop or two into New Addington can't cost that much.

[tripleseis]

Originally Posted by Rational Plan

The most promising seems to be Sutton, mainly because it has a nice easy route, with most of the route either through parkland or wide central reservations. The only slightly difficult bit is Sutton town centre. Is the high street wide enough for trams or would one running have to be put in? Also, how close to Sutton station can you get it without getting snarled in the gyratory?

You can certainly fit one line along the High Street, so you'd probably have to loop around the town centre. Some alterations will need to be made to the entrances of St Nicholas Centre though (just by looking on Google). Trams and pedestrians should mix pretty well (Amsterdam and Ghent being two examples of this).

[lemmo]

Some interesting options there Rational Plan, though I'm not sure how much of this is TfL plans and how much is yours

I'm all in favour of intensifying the service rather than spreading too thin over routes way beyond the Croydon bounds. Where do you stop? til you've covered most of South London?

Aside from double tracking and new stock, the priorities are linking West and East Croydon, and rebuilding West Croydon station. The first will help develop Croydon as a hub, as one of TfL's "strategic interchanges". The second is to improve interchange between tram, train and bus.

West Croydon is crying out for some intelligent design and investment. Rather than connecting directly into the adjacent bus station, passengers traipse in the opposite direction down dingy corridors onto the busy London Road. The station also has space for more terminating platforms, which could allow metro services to be ramped up. If TfL's Overground takes over more South London lines, it might find a useful terminus at West Croydon. And if one of those routes is via Crystal Palace then you might not need to extend Tramlink there.

Mitcham Jn is an odd place. It's an interchange with little around it, but now obviously has no physical link between Tramlink and the NR lines. The Sutton trains squeal around sharp curves on either side of the station, including Dorking fasts that don't stop, but crawl. This route could take more fast services from the south coast, which would help relieve the Brighton Mainline. The alignment from Hackbridge through to Mitcham Eastfields is generous, and the bridges suggest that they were providing for goods loops. If you have to double to bridge at Mitcham Jn anyway, why not explore a complete rebuild to straighten the NR line to improve linespeeds and capacity, and perhaps shift Tramlink onto the existing NR platforms...

[stephen_c]

For those that didn't pick it up, Geoff Hobbs of TfL at this weeks GLA transport committee indicated that their thinking was that Crystal Palace and Wimbledon to Sutton via St Helier Hospital were the options most likely to be taken forward.

I'm unconvinced by straightening Mitcham Junction NR (to relieve the Brighton line would require spare paths north of Streatham Common which aren't there). There used to be a fast train from Horsham to Waterloo via Dorking and Epsom, and it was the fastest service to run from Horsham in the time I lived there (but sadly little used as it wasn't well known). It does indicate just how slow the Sutton/Mitcham Junction route is. Were there to be 6 tracks from Surbiton to Waterloo and passing loops around Worcester Park (a good idea for other reasons), then Horsham/Arun Valley trains could be permanently moved to Waterloo from Victoria, freeing up the Brighton Main Line.

Extending the tram into Mitcham and on to Tooting Broadway would probably make a lot of sense though. Wimbledon to Sutton feels a bit meh to me. The existing NR line between Wimbledon and Sutton should be run at one train every 10 minutes first (cheap to do). Its a line through solid population areas which currently languishes with chronically poor half hourly service.

[Rational Plan]

Some interesting options there Rational Plan, though I'm not sure how much of this is TfL plans and how much is yours

Well, it's all based on the interview. From reading between the lines, I feel TFL's focus is shifting slightly away from the DLR and the Overground to Tramlink.

The DLR is done for a while. The network is fine for all the development sites that are likely to be developed in the next 20 years. The main driver for growth has been Canary Wharf. I suspect they will hold back on anything major until they see how Crossrail effects things.

Sure, they could do a extension to Dagenham, but no one lives along the route and with the Royal Docks finally starting to move forwards I think you've got 20 years of house building there and up the Lead Valley towards the Olympic zone. I suspect there is only one extension that could happen and that would towards the West End, and that is a big project.

The core of the Overground is done. The next few years will be about longer platforms and extra trains. Other expansion projects will be part of other project and paid for by central government i.e. Gospel Oak electrification or rebuild of the lines through Old Oak Common.

The one area where they have a core network that has been neglected is the Tramlink.

This combined with the highlighting if Tramlink extensions in the Mayors Transport Vision makes me think that Tramlink will be the benefit from the many medium projects approach of the previous systems.

I'm all in favour of intensifying the service rather than spreading too thin over routes way beyond the Croydon bounds. Where do you stop? til you've covered most of South London?

Why not? Seriously though, I support strengthening the core first, but why not use it as a springboard for further extensions. Not all of them will head to Croydon. The Sutton extension would be focused on Wimbledon. If they are looking at providing another central Croydon route, then the increased capacity would have to used somewhere.

It won't take them long to double track the Wimbledon route and rebuild Wimbledon station, after that what next?

Aside from double tracking and new stock, the priorities are linking West and East Croydon, and rebuilding West Croydon station. The first will help develop Croydon as a hub, as one of TfL's "strategic interchanges". The second is to improve interchange between tram, train and bus.

West Croydon is crying out for some intelligent design and investment. Rather than connecting directly into the adjacent bus station, passengers traipse in the opposite direction down dingy corridors onto the busy London Road. The station also has space for more terminating platforms, which could allow metro services to be ramped up. If TfL's Overground takes over more South London lines, it might find a useful terminus at West Croydon. And if one of those routes is via Crystal Palace then you might not need to extend Tramlink there.

I think the Crystal Palace line is all about using a lightly used line for a more intensive service. It's not as if the main lines into Croydon are lightly used.

I imagine for local journeys, the bus fare on the tram would be more popular than the Overground.

Mitcham Jn is an odd place. It's an interchange with little around it, but now obviously has no physical link between Tramlink and the NR lines. The Sutton trains squeal around sharp curves on either side of the station, including Dorking fasts that don't stop, but crawl. This route could take more fast services from the south coast, which would help relieve the Brighton Mainline. The alignment from Hackbridge through to Mitcham Eastfields is generous, and the bridges suggest that they were providing for goods loops. If you have to double to bridge at Mitcham Jn anyway, why not explore a complete rebuild to straighten the NR line to improve linespeeds and capacity, and perhaps shift Tramlink onto the existing NR platforms...

[/QUOTE]

Sure, if NR are interested to pay for it.

Who knows if any of these extensions will happen, but they are making all the right noises about doing so. They seem to be saying we believe in Tramlink, hence all the sudden flurry of investment. The core system does need more capacity, but what they are talking about seems more than a few extra trams to Wimbledon. Crystal Palace can almost be paid for out of normal TFL funds, if that can be built quickly and on cost that would pave the for bigger projects. The logical next choice after Crystal Palace, would be Sutton as it involves little utility relocation. Once the DFT working group works out a way for cheaper utility diversions, probably through less onerous standards, then people may look again at street running.

[Christopher125]

I wouldnt say TfL's focus has moved away from the Overground, if anything its intensified given the comments from both Ken and Boris about expanding it and the urgent need to increase capacity.

Chris

[lemmo]

I wouldnt say TfL's focus has moved away from the Overground, if anything its intensified given the comments from both Ken and Boris about expanding it and the urgent need to increase capacity.

I agree, and the recently released Mayor’s Rail Vision: Investing in Rail Services in London is following the path which London Reconnections explored last year. TfL do not pull any punches about the implications of such a devolution, hence you could regard this as a first salvo in a major political battle. Not only does this mean that TfL is very much focusing on Overground, but it may also have to look closely at freight, in order to realise its aspirations on Overground on the orbital and inner London lines, a topic we're currently exploring in more detail.

My understanding about the Crystal Palace branch is that it runs alongside the NR lines rather than replaces them? At some stage they will have to sort out grade-separation at Herne Hill, and this then opens up the potential for an intensive Croydon-Crystal Palace-Blackfriars route which will help relieve the BML.

On Wimbledon, both Tramlink and the NR Sutton-Tooting loop are fighting for the meagre space available on platforms 9/10. If they were going to expand lines around Wimbledon, why don't they push Tramlink up to street running, so platforms 9/10 return to what would become an intensive metro service to Blackfriars under Overground?

I'm unconvinced by straightening Mitcham Junction NR (to relieve the Brighton line would require spare paths north of Streatham Common which aren't there). There used to be a fast train from Horsham to Waterloo via Dorking and Epsom, and it was the fastest service to run from Horsham in the time I lived there (but sadly little used as it wasn't well known). It does indicate just how slow the Sutton/Mitcham Junction route is. Were there to be 6 tracks from Surbiton to Waterloo and passing loops around Worcester Park (a good idea for other reasons), then Horsham/Arun Valley trains could be permanently moved to Waterloo from Victoria, freeing up the Brighton Main Line.

If this used to provide the fastest route, why don't they develop it? There is space for passing loops/platforms at Cheam and it is mainly the Slow BML that are at capacity from Streatham north, indeed sometimes these services are routed onto the Fast lines at Streatham. The option to route south coast via Horsham trains to Waterloo may be possible with Crossrail 2, as the limiting factor is also platform capacity at Waterloo.

[stephen_c]

I've transcribed a fair portion of the recent GLA transport committee so people can see what was said on growth and HS2. 40 to 50% growth in "rail" (non-specific about whether that included tubes)

I didn't transcribe the trams part, but the explanation was from Morden Road turn right, and via Morden, the St Helier estate and St Helier hospital. My suspicion is that it would go through Morden town centre to Morden South station, then parallel to the NR line to St.Helier station, before taking Green Lane (wide central reservation) to St.Helier hospital. After that, no idea.

At Wimbledon, the problem is (like in many other places) they built on top of the tracks in by the station. Its hard to find a simple route to get the tram to the station without knocking down the development (unlikely). The obvious road (Hartfield Crescent) isn't suitable IMO (local knowledge). Bridging the main line to reach St.Georges road would be possible, but expensive.

To be honest, I'm surprised that TfL aren't pushing to just take over the NR line from Wimbledon to Sutton with a tram - Streatham to Sutton (I know there is some interest in it). While, I'd prefer the line to have a massively enhanced NR service to London (Sutton to Waterloo or CR2), I think that a 10 minute frequency tram is probably going to be the best it can expect.

On Horsham, the fastest route was into Waterloo, not via Sutton. I don't see any prospect for routing fast Horsham/Arun valley services via Sutton even with passing loops. 6 tracking the SWML would make the difference needed together with one or both of CR2 and Swanlink. The other reasons Horsham/Arun valley routes via the BML is Gatwick and Croydon - both major traffic destinations.

[Damarr]

Originally Posted by lemmo

At some stage they will have to sort out grade-separation at Herne Hill, and this then opens up the potential for an intensive Croydon-Crystal Palace-Blackfriars route which will help relieve the BML.

Has there been any indication of when this might be? There are something like 40 movements across the flat junctions during the rush hour, which must be preventing the expansion of suburban services.

Edit: I just had a read over the Mayor's vision doc that you linked to. Rather interestingly, TfL says it wants to take over the Southeastern suburban services, including the route between Victoria and Bromley South (which are routed via Herne Hill) by 2020. If it's going to be a proper metro service, I wonder if they will push for grade separation before taking over the route. The Overground expansion might also improve the case for building a high(er) level station at Brixton - having two Overground lines cross each other without an interchange would be a bit of a waste.

[cybertect]

Originally Posted by Rational Plan

The only slightly difficult bit is Sutton town centre. Is the high street wide enough for trams or would one running have to be put in?

Well, it used to be wide enough for two-way bus operation up to the late 1970s, and going back a bit further, for trolleybuses at the northern end where the 654 ran to its turn-around terminus at Sutton Green.

Originally Posted by Rational Plan

Also, how close to Sutton station can you get it without getting snarled in the gyratory?

AFAIK, the site on the northern side of the station adjacent to Sutton Court Road, with the rather lonely disused office block left on it, is already earmarked for a potential tram terminus.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=sutt...ngdom&t=h&z=18

[mr_jrt]

Why stop there? Head over the station and take over the Epsom downs branch and you've removed a capacity-consuming branch from the NR network. You could then extend it using on-street running to Tattenham Corner, and perhaps take that branch (or just the end of it). Removing the branch platforms at Sutton then enables you to alter Sutton station with a tiny bit of demolition to the west of the bridge to give you 4 east-west platforms, which if you add a flyover somewhere lets you segregate the Mitcham Junction route from the local lines from West Croydon to Wimbledon, permitting a LO extension perhaps?

[sotonsi]

Epsom Downs isn't a capacity-consuming branch - it's a capacity-creating branch that stops reversing trains gumming up Sutton station, by reducing the number of trains that reverse there.

[Rational Plan]

Originally Posted by lemmo

I agree, and the recently released Mayor’s Rail Vision: Investing in Rail Services in London is following the path which London Reconnections explored last year. TfL do not pull any punches about the implications of such a devolution, hence you could regard this as a first salvo in a major political battle. Not only does this mean that TfL is very much focusing on Overground, but it may also have to look closely at freight, in order to realise its aspirations on Overground on the orbital and inner London lines, a topic we're currently exploring in more detail.

My understanding about the Crystal Palace branch is that it runs alongside the NR lines rather than replaces them? At some stage they will have to sort out grade-separation at Herne Hill, and this then opens up the potential for an intensive Croydon-Crystal Palace-Blackfriars route which will help relieve the BML.

On Wimbledon, both Tramlink and the NR Sutton-Tooting loop are fighting for the meagre space available on platforms 9/10. If they were going to expand lines around Wimbledon, why don't they push Tramlink up to street running, so platforms 9/10 return to what would become an intensive metro service to Blackfriars under Overground?


If this used to provide the fastest route, why don't they develop it? There is space for passing loops/platforms at Cheam and it is mainly the Slow BML that are at capacity from Streatham north, indeed sometimes these services are routed onto the Fast lines at Streatham. The option to route south coast via Horsham trains to Waterloo may be possible with Crossrail 2, as the limiting factor is also platform capacity at Waterloo.

TFL may want to take over other suburban services, but they win;t end up looking the current overground. There are not many underused lines for a start plus theses lines are radial not orbital and already have intensive service. TFL can't just shove around the outer suburban services, or make them add stops and hence slow them down. Unless we are talking about new crossrail lines then there is no major scope to increase services as the terminal stations are full. Adding flyovers at certain will only make a marginal difference to the number of trains you can run, when there are blockages on the rest of the line. All they do is improve performance and robustness. Good for the network but that does not give a good BCR.

That's why I think expansion of the Overground will be more about branding and small improvements., the biggest of which will be a unified fare structure, which also make the operation of Oyster that much easier. I don't think well see any major money spent till HS2 lands at Old Oak Common.

[mr_jrt]

Originally Posted by sotonsi

Epsom Downs isn't a capacity-consuming branch - it's a capacity-creating branch that stops reversing trains gumming up Sutton station, by reducing the number of trains that reverse there.

Why terminate services at Sutton then? Why not somewhere else further out to take advantage of the capacity? Simple fact is that a service coming into Sutton station from the east means wasted capacity to the west regardless of whether it terminates or heads to Epsom Downs unless of course the trackwork enables the line from West Croydon to operate segregated to Epsom Downs segregated from the line from Mitcham Junction heading west, which if it were the case I'd wonder why LO ever stopped at West Croydon at all.

[stephen_c]

mt_jrt, Stations beyond West Croydon can get a fast service to London (not all stops). That, and the uncertainty as to how LO would work out in timetabling, meant a terminus at West Croydon. I think it was the right choice.

That said, tram to Epsom Downs would seem like a possibility, as it could be continued at street level with a bit of work to Tatenham Corner. Given the hourly off-peak service, the local residents just might be willing to accept the conversion and loss of through London services.

[sotonsi]

Originally Posted by stephen_c

mt_jrt, Stations beyond West Croydon can get a fast service to London (not all stops). That, and the uncertainty as to how LO would work out in timetabling, meant a terminus at West Croydon. I think it was the right choice.

That, and also demand (plus reversing capacity at Sutton, etc) - 2tph of Southern's 8 (4tph Victoria via Balham, 2tph LB via Streatham, 2tph LB via Norwood Junction semi-fast) serving the station terminate there.

Originally Posted by mr_jrt

Why terminate services at Sutton then? Why not somewhere else further out to take advantage of the capacity?

Same as West Croydon - demand being a major factor. From Croydon you have 6tph - 2tph semi-fast to London Bridge and 4tph stoppers from Victoria via Balham - the stoppers terminate there (or use the lengthy reversing siding that is the Epsom Downs branch).

Simple fact is that a service coming into Sutton station from the east means wasted capacity to the west regardless of whether it terminates or heads to Epsom Downs

Capacity is also 'how many trains can serve the station', not 'how many trains can go further down the main line'. Reversing trains always take more time to use the station than trains running through, so to get more trains through the station, you run them through on a short branch and you can have 4 reversing trains, rather than 3.

However, I was wrong, given that the Epsom Downs branch has dedicated platforms (guessing that the reversals terminate there), with some work (ie bridging the station), you can get Tramlink down to Epsom Downs, and keep the Victoria - W Croydon - Sutton trains terminating there (and, due to the conflict, there are capacity problems with sending them to Epsom (not Downs) - not to mention the problem that is Epsom station itself).

But still, your "must send as many trains as possible as far as possible" approach is silly. Do you also complain about Rayners Lane, Whitechapel and Plaistow, etc short turns on the tube (that aren't depot related)?

--

As an aside to all this, ISTR that some of the original Tramlink plans were to have West Croydon - Sutton - Epsom Downs as a tram line