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Old June 17th, 2009, 12:45 AM   #2001
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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Those motorways are in their countries' interests too; what interest does Slovenia have in building the Rijeka-Trieste motorway?
Well if even you believe it is not in your country's interest to build Rijeka - (Koper) - Trieste Motorway, (probably for fear of growth of Rijeka's port and Zagreb traffic route and generally Croatian economy that could directly "endanger" Slovenia (but tell me how, please?)) than why shouldn't your country build a Chinese wall around it? Who needs all that traffic anyway?
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Old June 17th, 2009, 01:14 AM   #2002
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Maybe they could co-finance it. It's ridiculous that Croatia should pay the full price for a motorway on Bosnian territory, but paying for a part of it might not be a weird idea, if it wasn't for the location: Balkans.
Strongly agree with you. Here in Balkans they would rather spend millions of euros more just that they would not need to cooperate or build something useful for both sides. Instead of spending those additional millions for something useful elsewhere a lot of money go wasted in Balkans.
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Old June 17th, 2009, 01:18 AM   #2003
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
To get through traffic out of the villages? Traffic safety?
1 month ago I drove here. I was all alone the whole time between the border and motorway. There was almost no traffic in opposite direction. You only pass thru few villages. Design speed of the road is also very low so no problem with traffic safety either.
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Old June 17th, 2009, 11:10 AM   #2004
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which? the main reason is traveling time. and it could be just worse if you add 2 border crossings. not to mention additional authorizations for lorries whiule passing through BIH
Reasons ecology, economy, money for example, and which are the reasons to build trough mountains over Dubrovnik? Politics and ego problems of some Croatians.

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actually, we are not talking about passing through Neum area, but whole motorway south from Ploče. BIH insists tha motorway enters to BIH there and continues to Montenegro. and they expect HR government to give the money for construction

this what you're saying would be the best way through Neum
This is not true. BiH expects nothing from Croatia, someone from BiH and Croatia mentioned that BiH could give this motorway to Croatia to build and keep. It is not like the Croatia would give something for free.

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Maybe they could co-finance it. It's ridiculous that Croatia should pay the full price for a motorway on Bosnian territory, but paying for a part of it might not be a weird idea, if it wasn't for the location: Balkans. I think a motorway to Dubrovnik only accessible via Bosnian territory will be unacceptable to Croats.

However, financing foreign roads is not that weird. The EU does it all the time, also outside the EU, and for instance, the Netherlands co-financed the German A31 because it's also of value for northern Netherlands.
Off course it is ridiculous and no one suggest that. Someone from BiH made proposal to Croatia to build motorway trough BiH, but also they would have rights to take toll money.

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uf, we should finance slovenian motorways

BIH is angry because HR is playing on sure cards and building a bridge to bypass BIH. so HR has shown that it is definitely not our interest that motorway passes through BIH teritory. just remember all conditions which they were asking for bridge, as we are building Oeresund bridge! and still they were not satisfied. so, we ahve shown that there is no need for us to finance motorway in BIH, and they are pissed off because of that
again not true,you are making your statement based on opinion of some Zagreb magazines and Internet sites. Reality is different. Hardly anyone cares about these things in BiH, 70% of BiH donīt care.

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Originally Posted by pijanec View Post
Here in Balkans they would rather spend millions of euros more just that they would not need to cooperate or build something useful for both sides. Instead of spending those additional millions for something useful elsewhere a lot of money go wasted in Balkans.
strongly agree

Last edited by Ban.BL; June 17th, 2009 at 11:19 AM.
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Old June 17th, 2009, 12:33 PM   #2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
My idea:
[IMG]http://i41.************/2nirxpl.jpg[/IMG]
Your idea is very close to that one in ONLY legal and official plan for motorway to Dubrovnik. It's fixed in National Spatial strategy and regional Spatial plan of Dubrovnik - Neretva county, two documents that in Croatia has strength of low. Only difference is that there isn't only one exit from Motorway to Neum but two (close to the both border lines and connected with the local roads so border check points, located close to the exits from (and of course out) of Motorway could also cover border crossings on local road.
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Old June 17th, 2009, 01:54 PM   #2006
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Rijeka - Trieste would make the fastest route from southern parts of Balkan to Italy, not to mention that it is one of 2 most important touristic routes to Croatia (and tourism is not that minor thing here)
I was talking about what it connects in Slovenia (not much).

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and if Graz - Spielfeld is that important, why doesn't Slovenia finnish its part of that, in your words, important route?
It's not as important to Slovenia as it is to Croatia and Austria (and even some other countries), but you should ask the Slovenian transport ministry.

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Originally Posted by rimorski View Post
Well if even you believe it is not in your country's interest to build Rijeka - (Koper) - Trieste Motorway, (probably for fear of growth of Rijeka's port and Zagreb traffic route and generally Croatian economy that could directly "endanger" Slovenia (but tell me how, please?)) than why shouldn't your country build a Chinese wall around it? Who needs all that traffic anyway?
I don't know what you're talking about.
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Old June 17th, 2009, 02:23 PM   #2007
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Slovenia + 3 other countries
What, Netherlands want a part of Croatian sea as well?
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Old June 17th, 2009, 06:07 PM   #2008
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Originally Posted by Ban.BL View Post
Reasons ecology, economy, money for example, and which are the reasons to build trough mountains over Dubrovnik? Politics and ego problems of some Croatians.


This is not true. BiH expects nothing from Croatia, someone from BiH and Croatia mentioned that BiH could give this motorway to Croatia to build and keep. It is not like the Croatia would give something for free.


Off course it is ridiculous and no one suggest that. Someone from BiH made proposal to Croatia to build motorway trough BiH, but also they would have rights to take toll money.
but it is not in croatian interest. if we would buid motorway at BIH ground and have money from it, why wouldn't we build at our own ground and make our land more interesting and developed instead of neighbour's? you know that one: God has created his beard before others' (gosh, this one sounds so stupid in english ) why would we debvelop BIH economy when we have a plenty of space to develop our?

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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
I was talking about what it connects in Slovenia (not much).
khm, aren't we talking about solidarity between neighbouring countries? you have shown exact slovenian opinion and face in this sentence.

It's not as important to Slovenia as it is to Croatia and Austria (and even some other countries), but you should ask the Slovenian transport ministry.
[/QUOTE]
this is just a poor excuse.
and nobody is baliming Verso or pijanec, but general slovenian politics of destroying everything what worths something in neighbouring countries without choosing any means.
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Old June 17th, 2009, 06:17 PM   #2009
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but it is not in croatian interest. if we would buid motorway at BIH ground and have money from it, why wouldn't we build at our own ground and make our land more interesting and developed instead of neighbour's? you know that one: God has created his beard before others' (gosh, this one sounds so stupid in english ) why would we debvelop BIH economy when we have a plenty of space to develop our?
Because it is cheaper to build on BiH ground, so Croatia can earn more money. It is also ecologically and touristic better and more acceptable on BiH ground for Croatia. The only reason why you would be against it is politics, coz no other reason is meaningful.
And It is not like the motorway would be 100km from planed location trough Croatia, it would be 5km away.

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but general slovenian politics of destroying everything what worths something in neighbouring countries without choosing any means.
This sentence could be You are not that different.
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Old June 17th, 2009, 07:01 PM   #2010
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Because it is cheaper to build on BiH ground, so Croatia can earn more money. It is also ecologically and touristic better and more acceptable on BiH ground for Croatia. The only reason why you would be against it is politics, coz no other reason is meaningful.
Do you actually undestand what you're writing? Croatian citizens giving their tax money to build a motorway in another country, when they can build it on their own soil and benefit from it? Why would anyone want to do that? It's not that the terrain in Croatia is much more difficult than that one where we have already built motorways anyway...

Last edited by snupix; June 17th, 2009 at 07:09 PM.
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Old June 17th, 2009, 07:15 PM   #2011
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Do you actually undestand what you're writing? Croatian citizens giving their tax money to build a motorway in another country, when they can build it on their own soil and benefit from it? Would anyone be so stupid to do that? It's not that the terrain in Croatia is much more difficult than that one where we have already built motorways anyway...
Yes i understand, do you understand what do i mean?
Croatian citizen would not lose money on this motorway. All toll money would go in Croatiaīs budget. But on the other hand they will suffer from ecological consequences. Also the Croatiaīs territory is to narrow and it is bad investment to destroy it with motorway, also motorway would be too expensive, Croatia can save money and invest it in other projects. But you all know that. I personally donīt care what will be and i understand your point of view. But i also think that building this motorway should be cooperation between two countries, coz both would benefit from this project. But i think it is not possible coz no one in Croatia is bold enough to go in this project, coz they would loose on next election 100%. People donīt want that, the politics is in every spore of society.

Last edited by Ban.BL; June 17th, 2009 at 07:20 PM.
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Old June 17th, 2009, 07:42 PM   #2012
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I think it's clear enough that building motorway through BiH lies deeply in Croatian interest moneywise. It's not only shorter, but also much cheaper. I can't even imagine bypassing BiH with all the bridges, tunnels and overpasses on Croatian soil, it would be totally absurd.

So it's not like Croatia is some kind of samaritan funding a motorway for BiH (talking about costs, it's still just 4-5km stratch), because vast majority of the profits will be on the Croatian side. Of course, I can see no reason for BiH to block this investment unless Croats are not willing to pay a dime for it. They can see their profits on the horizon as well. If not a share of the tolls collected, then at least a direct connection to European motorway system. That's why it's in both of their interests to cooperate and build this stretch at once.
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Old June 17th, 2009, 11:57 PM   #2013
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khm, aren't we talking about solidarity between neighbouring countries?
Yes, be solidary with us and cofinance it. Look at the Netherlands.
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Old June 18th, 2009, 01:07 AM   #2014
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NL and D case, well, that’s what friends do. Are SLO and HR friends? Thanks to folks like you, Verso, we are not.

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I think it's clear enough that building motorway through BiH lies deeply in Croatian interest moneywise.
Majestic and others, corridor to Dubrovnik was not, is not, and will never be just a matter of how much invested, what gained. As I said BiH is an unusual country with complicated present and unpredictable future. And not to mention this solution where the motorway would go all through Serb Republic in Dubrovnik background - what if they break away from BiH? Dubrovnik cut off the modern motorway again? No, thanks. The very south of Croatia deserves a solid, undisturbed connection with the rest of the country.
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Old June 18th, 2009, 01:23 AM   #2015
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NL and D case, well, that’s what friends do. Are SLO and HR friends? Thanks to folks like you, Verso, we are not.



Majestic and others, corridor to Dubrovnik was not, is not, and will never be just a matter of how much invested, what gained. As I said BiH is an unusual country with complicated present and unpredictable future. And not to mention this solution where the motorway would go all through Serb Republic in Dubrovnik background - what if they break away from BiH? Dubrovnik cut off the modern motorway again? No, thanks. The very south of Croatia deserves a solid, undisturbed connection with the rest of the country.
So if Serb Republic brake away Croats will not be able to travel trough RS
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Old June 18th, 2009, 01:25 AM   #2016
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You really use that hammer too much.

As for that travel through S.R. thing, who knows, but why taking a risk.
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Old June 18th, 2009, 09:06 AM   #2017
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So it's not like Croatia is some kind of samaritan funding a motorway for BiH (talking about costs, it's still just 4-5km stratch), because vast majority of the profits will be on the Croatian side.
It is not 5 km strech. We are talking about 50 km now.
AADT is too small for enyone to benefit from toll. Investment will never be payed off from toll. So it is expected that Croatia finance motorway.

But there are others aspects (tourism and economy) which benefit from that motorway. And it only logical that Croatia invest money in Croatia, even if it is more costly!

Last edited by zezi; June 18th, 2009 at 10:35 AM.
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Old June 18th, 2009, 12:09 PM   #2018
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It is not 5 km strech. We are talking about 50 km now.
AADT is too small for enyone to benefit from toll. Investment will never be payed off from toll. So it is expected that Croatia finance motorway.

But there are others aspects (tourism and economy) which benefit from that motorway. And it only logical that Croatia invest money in Croatia, even if it is more costly!
If you look touristic aspect than Croatia will benefit if motorway goes trough BiH, coz motorway 2km from the coast is not helping tourism it is harming it.
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Old June 18th, 2009, 12:10 PM   #2019
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You really use that hammer too much.

As for that travel through S.R. thing, who knows, but why taking a risk.
Well every normal person knows, so if you donīt than i am sorry.
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Old June 18th, 2009, 01:53 PM   #2020
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NL and D case, well, that’s what friends do. Are SLO and HR friends? Thanks to folks like you, Verso, we are not.
You really lack self-criticism.
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