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Old January 6th, 2013, 12:13 PM   #4141
MichiH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
The main problem with the corridor Vb is lack of international traffic.
But there are two sections u/c. The Drava bridge near Osijek and the Sava bridge to Bosnia. When will these sections be opened?

Is the whole northern section from Osijek to the Hungarian border already under construction or only the Drava bridge? Where is the end of that the u/c section? Are there already detailed plans and schedules for completing the motorway?
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Old January 6th, 2013, 12:59 PM   #4142
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why is the bridge being built? who knows. few years ago Osijek has got western bypass already with new bridge over Drava. they have been talking that that bridge will be doubled one day and motorway would be traced on it. that would be great move because in that case motorway would pass near city centre.
That would be great! I was thinking about that too, because it would make more sense and motorway would have attracted both international and local traffic. I have feeling that in Croatia people are afraid of having motorways near the cities, so motorways are being built 5-10 km from city limits. In such circumstances, it's obvious that no one uses them, simply because it's impractical, and in many cases longer

Another thing - everyone think that we should have both motorway and parallel toll-free national road which bypasses all towns. It's simply not possible, which can be seen in A5/D7 case. About 10 years ago we rejected previous way of building motorways - doubling the existing roads (magistrale), but I think that D7 could have been doubled on Đakovo-Osijek section and converted into motorway A5. It would be cheaper, easier, the existing bridge over Drava would be in use and today we wouldn't have 2 empty roads (there would still be some local toll-free roads)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
But there are two sections u/c. The Drava bridge near Osijek and the Sava bridge to Bosnia. When will these sections be opened?

Is the whole northern section from Osijek to the Hungarian border already under construction or only the Drava bridge? Where is the end of that the u/c section? Are there already detailed plans and schedules for completing the motorway?
Don't be so sure that motorway is empty because it's not completed. It's empty because of the reasons I gave you in my previous post (no industry, no money, unemployment, bad routing of motorway...). There's also no traffic on existing routes through national roads (croatian D7, hungarian 6), so the traffic which would switch on new motorways when completed simply doesn't exist!

Only the bridge is u/c. The route north from the bridge towards H-border is not u/c yet.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 01:37 PM   #4143
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Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
it would make more sense and motorway would have attracted both international and local traffic. I have feeling that in Croatia people are afraid of having motorways near the cities, so motorways are being built 5-10 km from city limits.
I think, that this is the correct way of designing a motorway! Motorways should be built for the regional and international traffic, and not for local traffic!

There are many motorways in other countries (e.g. Germany), which were built very near/through the cities a few decades before. Then, the traffic has increased and the cities has grown. Now there is no chance to widen the motorway by further lanes or the residents want to have expensive noise protection. Now they are building very expensive tunnels.

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Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
Don't be so sure that motorway is empty because it's not completed. It's empty because of the reasons I gave you in my previous post (no industry, no money, unemployment, bad routing of motorway...). There's also no traffic on existing routes through national roads (croatian D7, hungarian 6), so the traffic which would switch on new motorways when completed simply doesn't exist!
I don't want to talk about the sense, I want to know the status of the construction.

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Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
Only the bridge is u/c. The route north from the bridge towards H-border is not u/c yet.
Ok. Thanks. Do you have any information, when the bridge should be completed? As I understood, there is no chance to drive over the bridge, because there is no road before and after the bridge, and there is no schedule for construction, isn't it?

What's about the Sava bridge to Bosnia?
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Old January 6th, 2013, 02:26 PM   #4144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
I think, that this is the correct way of designing a motorway! Motorways should be built for the regional and international traffic, and not for local traffic!

There are many motorways in other countries (e.g. Germany), which were built very near/through the cities a few decades before. Then, the traffic has increased and the cities has grown. Now there is no chance to widen the motorway by further lanes or the residents want to have expensive noise protection. Now they are building very expensive tunnels.
I understand that. When i said "local traffic", I meant regional. There couldn't be any local traffic since Osijek is positioned in east-west direction, while A5 is in north-south. That's why Osijek has only 1 motorway exit (interchange between A5 and D2/south bypass) and all local traffic goes on D2 (expressway currently being doubled to 2x2).

Quote:
Ok. Thanks. Do you have any information, when the bridge should be completed? As I understood, there is no chance to drive over the bridge, because there is no road before and after the bridge, and there is no schedule for construction, isn't it?

What's about the Sava bridge to Bosnia?
I think no one knows. There's no money, but the construction continues because it has no sense to stop it (and it would be more expensive to do so). Even after completion of the bridge, it will be useless until the northern section of A5 is finished until Beli Manastir and the border (~24 km).


About Sava bridge at Svilaj:
-post from Bosnian forum (that's why it speaks about A1/bosnian motorway on corridor Vc)-
Quote:
Originally Posted by celevac View Post
Trouble concerning the Sava bridge at Svilaj (northernmost part of the A1, at the Croatian border):

http://www.avaz.ba/vijesti/teme/stra...-mosta-na-savi
(from Bosnian newspaper Dnevni Avaz on December 27, 2012)

Basically, they are saying that the Austrian construction company Strabag who won the international tender for construction of the bridge sued Bosnia and Herzegovina because BiH has failed to provide the necessary conditions for construction on time. There were a lot of inconsistencies in the whole procedure, now they are looking for a new tender by April hoping that they can still start construction in 2013.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 03:27 PM   #4145
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I think no one knows. There's no money, but the construction continues because it has no sense to stop it (and it would be more expensive to do so).
Ok. So it is the best, to finsh the construction.
But why is the tender only for the bridge, and not for a whole section? Maybe because of the long time for completion of a brigde? Maybe it was planned to tender the road work some months/years later?

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Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
Even after completion of the bridge, it will be useless until the northern section of A5 is finished until Beli Manastir and the border (~24 km).
In my opinion it makes no sense to have the A5 end at Beli Manastir, because the traffic must still drive through the town. It should be better, to leave the A5 at Ceminac exit. Does anybody know the costs for the road work of the section Osijek - Cemiac?

To build the motorway to the border makes only sense if Hungary will also complete their M6.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 09:31 PM   #4146
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Thanks for the responses. I will certainly use the Virovitica Bielovar Zagreb section when it is completed. It will bring Zagreb much closer to Pécs.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 10:12 PM   #4147
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my thinking: for the price of the bridge they could have easily build the motorway up to Našice. with the money of existing emty A5 they could build the motorway Našice - Suhopolje, motorway Zagreb - Virovitica is under construction or planned, and remains only small link that shouldn't be expensive.
with that solution we would connect Osijek with Zagreb, and would get the motorway used for both local and transit traffic.
What about a motorway between Hungary and Bosnia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
Another thing - everyone think that we should have both motorway and parallel toll-free national road which bypasses all towns. It's simply not possible, which can be seen in A5/D7 case. About 10 years ago we rejected previous way of building motorways - doubling the existing roads (magistrale), but I think that D7 could have been doubled on Đakovo-Osijek section and converted into motorway A5. It would be cheaper, easier, the existing bridge over Drava would be in use and today we wouldn't have 2 empty roads (there would still be some local toll-free roads)!
Try driving Zagreb - Novo mesto - Ljubljana on toll-free roads. I did it once for fun (from Ljubljana to the border) and it took me 2.5 hours. Until a couple of years ago there even used to be a short gravel section between Grosuplje and Višnja Gora.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 10:17 PM   #4148
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Quote:
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What about a motorway between Hungary and Bosnia?
you see the amount of traffic on existing motorway?
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Old January 7th, 2013, 10:33 PM   #4149
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Yes, but I think there should be a motorway between Budapest and Ploče eventually. What's the point of having no motorway between the Hungarian M6 and the Croatian A3?
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Old January 7th, 2013, 10:37 PM   #4150
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well, we'll have it soon obviously. but trust me, the traffic from Osijek to Zagreb still runs on D2. especially lorries.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 10:46 PM   #4151
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you see the amount of traffic on existing motorway?
Last time I drove on A5 I've encountered one (1) other car on the whole motorway for 50km. It was kind of eerie, felt like we've accidentally entered a closed road or something, it was so empty. Seems weird this motorway was even built instead of spending this money for example on widening A1 or A3 to 2x3.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 10:51 PM   #4152
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Well, the A5 was built because of former government's policy to connect the center of Slavonia (Osijek) and capital of Croatia (Zagreb) with a motorway. AFAIK the plans for a motorway from the A3 to Đakovo existed from the end of seventies (believe it or not).
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Old January 7th, 2013, 10:53 PM   #4153
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Seems weird this motorway was even built instead of spending this money for example on widening A1 or A3 to 2x3.
More like on building some other motorway. No Croatian motorway needs widening yet.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 11:00 PM   #4154
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More like on building some other motorway. No Croatian motorway needs widening yet.
Seriously? Have you driven on A1 between Zagreb and Karlovac? Or Zagreb's bypass on A3?
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Old January 7th, 2013, 11:27 PM   #4155
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More like on building some other motorway. No Croatian motorway needs widening yet.
They do need. Especially A1 from Lučko to Karlovac and A3 from Jankomir to Ivanja Rijeka (A3 from Jankomir to Lučko is in fact A2/A3 and from Lučko to Ivanja Rijeka in fact A3/A4).
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Old January 8th, 2013, 12:11 AM   #4156
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Zagreb bypass has like 40-50,000 AADT and Zagreb-Karlovac 30,000 or so. 2×2 can easily handle up to 80,000 AADT.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 12:59 AM   #4157
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Zagreb bypass has like 40-50,000 AADT and Zagreb-Karlovac 30,000 or so. 2×2 can easily handle up to 80,000 AADT.
Zagreb-Karlovac has something like 52k AADT at the moment if I remember correctly. And traffic is very dense during rush hours, even despite the fact that cars are fed through ineffective toll booths.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 01:08 AM   #4158
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Quote:
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Zagreb bypass has like 40-50,000 AADT and Zagreb-Karlovac 30,000 or so. 2×2 can easily handle up to 80,000 AADT.
I wouldnt say that 2x2 motorway can easily handle 50 000 cars not even 80 000, 50k is something about the limit, and 80k can get really bad when it is an urban motorway or bypass.

In case of Croatia it would be good to have statistics for summer season too, I guess there is a huge difference.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 01:31 AM   #4159
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Croatian AADT (last page)

ZG-KA has 30k AADT.

Btw, the Ljubljana ringroad has 60-80k AADT and traffic still flows smoothly. You can only get stuck in rush hours, but not for long. A1 LJ-Postojna has 44-60k AADT and there's no widening planned in the foreseeable future.

Last edited by Verso; January 8th, 2013 at 03:59 AM.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 12:23 PM   #4160
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What about toll booths? Do they create STAU?
SLO has vignette and that's great.
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