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Old May 7th, 2013, 11:03 PM   #4381
darko06
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...
actually it is more than nationalistic propaganda. even the leftmost parties in HR started to support idea of the bridge. if there was enough money, it would alerady have visible contours, trust me.
...
Ooh I see. Croatia should build the A13 motorway to Bjelovar before building Pelješac Bridge.
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Old May 7th, 2013, 11:06 PM   #4382
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You mean Bosnian nationalistic propaganda.
No, I mean both countries propaganda. I read a lot from both sides in past years and no nation is any angel at this issue. Especially I often read many misinformation from Croatian newspapers and polititians, what is allowed in EU and Schengen and what not. Of course Bosnian side has very unrealistic demands about bridge or motorway corridor. Politicians of both countries apparently don't want to settle that with experts, because constant happenings about that sadly bring political points but no solution.
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Old May 7th, 2013, 11:13 PM   #4383
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Ooh I see. Croatia should build the A13 motorway to Bjelovar before building Pelješac Bridge.
if you're trying to provoke a localpatriotistic outburst from me, you are at completely wrong address. i am immune on such things

@keber: what would be the best solution in your opinion? i mean, if BIH makes problems about transit corridor, what stops HR to build bridge on its own teritory?
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Old May 7th, 2013, 11:23 PM   #4384
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@keber: what would be the best solution in your opinion?
Croatian politicians should learn first, how it came to construction of Osim road near Nova Gorica - a road for eastern Europe country, built through EU and Nato territory in the middle of cold war. Then apply accordingly to Neum situation. Also they should use more lobbying in EU for their pressure to BiH to allow that corridor. Believe me, correct (not strong) pressure from EU to weak Bosnian government regarding Neum would clear things very rapidly.

You just need few politicians who would start to actually work on that not just talk nationalistic propaganda. More or less everything is in the hand of Croatia politicians and their determination. however in the past history of Pelješac bridge construction there was already enormous amount of corruption and this should be also clarified.
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Old May 7th, 2013, 11:24 PM   #4385
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No, I mean both countries propaganda. I read a lot from both sides in past years and no nation is any angel at this issue. Especially I often read many misinformation from Croatian newspapers and polititians, what is allowed in EU and Schengen and what not. Of course Bosnian side has very unrealistic demands about bridge or motorway corridor. Politicians of both countries apparently don't want to settle that with experts, because constant happenings about that sadly bring political points but no solution.
You are very wrong in that. European Union experts recently monitored all solutions and recommended Pelješac Bridge. Soon after that Foreign and European Minister in Croatian Government dr Pusić made a mistake and publicly announced this recommendation.

And be relaxed, Slovenian taxpayers won't finance this bridge, after recent financial development in Eurozone.

Last edited by darko06; May 7th, 2013 at 11:32 PM.
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Old May 7th, 2013, 11:27 PM   #4386
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... More or less everything is in the hand of Croatia politicians and their determination. however in the past history of Pelješac bridge construction there was already enormous amount of corruption and this should be also clarified.
Leave Croatian politicians to Croatian courts. If I would be Slovene then I would be very concerned with recent financial developments in Slovenia ... not to say that yesterday on corruption perception scale Slovenia was placed on 1st place, while Croatia was 3rd ...
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Old May 7th, 2013, 11:47 PM   #4387
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You see yourself? You already act nationalistic.

Look, I work also on EU traffic corridors and I know quite a lot about ways how decisions about "correct" solutions are accepted. There is no such thing as EU experts, there are just bureaucrats. Also I read similar to that "European Union experts recently monitored all solutions and recommended Pelješac Bridge." already some years ago. Also such documents in EU are usually available publicly if they really exist.

I will ignore news about corruption and my country financial problems because that is pure nationalistic nonsense distraction in context of Neum issue.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 01:32 AM   #4388
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BIH refuzed closed corridor with no entrance / exit and with no contol over it.
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You mean Bosnian nationalistic propaganda. Croatia has offered exactly this solution: Normal motorway exit with normal toll station and additional customs.
So, what did Croatia really offer?
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Old May 8th, 2013, 10:21 AM   #4389
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Sv. Ilija tunnel (Biokovo)

Biokovo tunnel - direction D8 connector road

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sunset boulevard 01.05.2013...

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Old May 8th, 2013, 11:57 AM   #4390
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What happened to idea of ferry to Pelješac?
Is it scraped?
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Old May 8th, 2013, 12:47 PM   #4391
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Quote:
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...

Look, I work also on EU traffic corridors ...
Where exactly, if this is not an official secret?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
...

There is no such thing as EU experts, there are just bureaucrats. ...
So you're a bureaucrat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
...

Also I read similar to that "European Union experts recently monitored all solutions and recommended Pelješac Bridge." already some years ago. Also such documents in EU are usually available publicly if they really exist.
...
You forgot that Croatia will enter the EU at July 1st this year. So there will be also Croatian bureaucrates who will lobby the best solution for Croatia under the given circumstances, which is obviously the Pelješac Bridge.

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You see yourself? You already act nationalistic.

...

I will ignore news about corruption and my country financial problems because that is pure nationalistic nonsense distraction in context of Neum issue.
Look dude, you started first with allegations about corruption on preliminary works for Pelješac Bridge. In the same manner I could ask about corruption on building some stretches at Ljubljana-Obrežje motorway, which was built by European money, and where are some stretches with desintegrated pavement and speed reductions of 80 km/h after last winter.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 12:48 PM   #4392
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What happened to idea of ferry to Pelješac?
Is it scraped?
Yes it is.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 12:58 PM   #4393
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So, what did Croatia really offer?
Exactly this: fenced motorway through Neum Corridor, with an interchange contending a toll plaza and a Schengen border crossing after that. Croatia offered to finance a whole enterprise, further to finance a maintenance of this stretch and was willing to pay exact amount of tolls for this about 6 km long stretch to Bosnia & Herzegovina. Of course that in this case Croatia also should monitor this stretch with its police, immigration and customs officers, which would mean at some point executing the sovereignity, and I think that Bosnia & Herzegovina refused just that, due to the events of 1992-1995. Don't forget that such kind of agreements should arrange Bosnia & Herzegovina as a state, so the Republika Srpska should be asked about that.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 01:01 PM   #4394
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Biokovo tunnel - direction D8 connector road



Nice.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 03:00 PM   #4395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
Exactly this: fenced motorway through Neum Corridor, with an interchange contending a toll plaza and a Schengen border crossing after that. Croatia offered to finance a whole enterprise, further to finance a maintenance of this stretch and was willing to pay exact amount of tolls for this about 6 km long stretch to Bosnia & Herzegovina. Of course that in this case Croatia also should monitor this stretch with its police, immigration and customs officers, which would mean at some point executing the sovereignity, and I think that Bosnia & Herzegovina refused just that, due to the events of 1992-1995. Don't forget that such kind of agreements should arrange Bosnia & Herzegovina as a state, so the Republika Srpska should be asked about that.
I know this, Croatia has land border disputes with almost all neighboring countries, so therefore i think that ending a border disputes is not priority for Croatia, on the contrary i think that you like this kind of "open" situation, because first of all political parties can gathering points about this topic before elections and 2nd. you still think that time is your ally (especially with BIH because this is country for which we dont know in what form will exist in the future). So you see it's just pure politics and nothing else.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 03:48 PM   #4396
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Where exactly, if this is not an official secret?
Railway axis no.6 between Italy and Slovenia which is/will be co-financed by EU.

Quote:
So you're a bureaucrat.
No, an expert designer and project leader. I've done many international meetings on a level that is (presumably) being currently in progress for Neum issue.

Quote:
You forgot that Croatia will enter the EU at July 1st this year. So there will be also Croatian bureaucrates who will lobby the best solution for Croatia under the given circumstances, which is obviously the Pelješac Bridge.
"Obviously" is a debatable word. Technically looking, bridge is obviously not the best solution (and it can't be - cost and maintenance). Politically this is a different matter and a thing that is not discussed in expert circles, but political and bureaucratic.

Quote:
Look dude, you started first with allegations about corruption on preliminary works for Pelješac Bridge.
I read news about that in Croatian articles and forums few years ago (it was about land acquisition and who know which politician and so)

Quote:
In the same manner I could ask about corruption on building some stretches at Ljubljana-Obrežje motorway, which was built by European money, and where are some stretches with desintegrated pavement and speed reductions of 80 km/h after last winter.
And what corruption do you see here? Motorway is 9 years old, drainage asphalt doesn't last very long because of porous structure, especially not in winter, and this winter was difficult. It is being repaired right now.
And if you're wondering, that "disintegrated" pavement was build by Austrian company with their workers and machines. I know that because I was working also on that motorway stretch at its construction.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 07:46 PM   #4397
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I know this, Croatia has land border disputes with almost all neighboring countries, so therefore i think that ending a border disputes is not priority for Croatia, on the contrary i think that you like this kind of "open" situation, because first of all political parties can gathering points about this topic before elections and 2nd. you still think that time is your ally (especially with BIH because this is country for which we dont know in what form will exist in the future). So you see it's just pure politics and nothing else.
there are only disputies with Slovenia and BIH. both are result of huge will of almost landlocked countries to be maritime forces.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 08:08 PM   #4398
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there are only disputies with Slovenia and BIH. both are result of huge will of almost landlocked countries to be maritime forces.
There is a border dispute with Serbia about border at the Danube:

http://www.serbiamap.net/maps/granic...a-hrvatska.jpg
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Old May 8th, 2013, 08:24 PM   #4399
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Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
Exactly this: fenced motorway through Neum Corridor, with an interchange contending a toll plaza and a Schengen border crossing after that. Croatia offered to finance a whole enterprise, further to finance a maintenance of this stretch and was willing to pay exact amount of tolls for this about 6 km long stretch to Bosnia & Herzegovina. Of course that in this case Croatia also should monitor this stretch with its police, immigration and customs officers, which would mean at some point executing the sovereignity, and I think that Bosnia & Herzegovina refused just that, due to the events of 1992-1995. Don't forget that such kind of agreements should arrange Bosnia & Herzegovina as a state, so the Republika Srpska should be asked about that.
The best solution here would be to allow BiH the right to patrol the road as well, and perhaps restrict Croatian involvement to technological solutions only. Croatia could then stop people only on Croatian territory, having gained evidence of their wrongdoing by video camera and other solutions. That way, Bosnia doesn't have to feel threatened by the presence of Croatian forces on their territory, and Croatia retains the ability to route all traffic through border crossings if they feel the need to do so.

I can't imagine it would be difficult to create a system that automatically detects if a car/etc is behaving abnormally on the road. Bosnia would have full rights to police the road, which would ease their fears too.

As for the ferry, what on earth? I thought it was going to start as planned on the 1st July? Neum will only be able to be transited freely by trucks up to 7.5 tonnes and with no more than 10,000EUR of goods on board - so without the ferry (freight-only, wasn't it?) connection, it's going to be hell in summer at Klek/Zaton Doli, surely??

But finally - why doesn't Croatia just build a tunnel instead at Pelješac?
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Old May 8th, 2013, 09:47 PM   #4400
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There is a border dispute with Serbia about border at the Danube:

http://www.serbiamap.net/maps/granic...a-hrvatska.jpg
i know for that, but it is so calm that it is no worth to mention. there were never some issues and argues about it afaik. it has been mentioned only few times in media when they had silly season.

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The best solution here would be to allow BiH the right to patrol the road as well, and perhaps restrict Croatian involvement to technological solutions only. Croatia could then stop people only on Croatian territory, having gained evidence of their wrongdoing by video camera and other solutions. That way, Bosnia doesn't have to feel threatened by the presence of Croatian forces on their territory, and Croatia retains the ability to route all traffic through border crossings if they feel the need to do so.

I can't imagine it would be difficult to create a system that automatically detects if a car/etc is behaving abnormally on the road. Bosnia would have full rights to police the road, which would ease their fears too.

As for the ferry, what on earth? I thought it was going to start as planned on the 1st July? Neum will only be able to be transited freely by trucks up to 7.5 tonnes and with no more than 10,000EUR of goods on board - so without the ferry (freight-only, wasn't it?) connection, it's going to be hell in summer at Klek/Zaton Doli, surely??

But finally - why doesn't Croatia just build a tunnel instead at Pelješac?
Croatia would have absolutely nothing against your first idea about Bosnian patroling corridor through Neum and has never demanded full control on that part.

about ferry - it exists and runs between Ploče and Trpanj.
however, it has more local character to make access to Pelješac and to spare extra kilometers (since the penninsula is connected to cnotinent at southernmost part). but using that line for heavy lorries would make Pelješac road (D414) a real bottleneck since it is definitely not capable for heavy traffic.

tunnel was also an option, but shortly since that would be too expensive and too brave project (bridge itself is already expensive as hell)
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