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Old May 8th, 2013, 11:25 PM   #4401
Broccolli
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there are only disputies with Slovenia and BIH. both are result of huge will of almost landlocked countries to be maritime forces.
I don't want to argue with you ,but in Slovenia/Croatia case, just for info.
Slovenia/Slovenians was/were always maritime country/nation.
This case is now in court proceedings.

And to end this topic i have one funny "story" to tell. My father was buying a new slovenian flag recently, and guess where it was made... in Croatia, it is made in Croatia flag . So you see isn't all so bad between us, it cant be if you guys are making our national flags for us, and it is also very well made, nice quality fabric

Last edited by Broccolli; May 8th, 2013 at 11:30 PM.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 12:07 PM   #4402
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Can Croatia and European Union (connecting Montenegro with the EU) wait so long? No, they can't!
Is it an option to start building a motorway from Slano to Dubrovnik to improve road safety and speed up travelling? Than building a Dubrovnik bypass and a motorway to the Montenegro border near Herceg Novi. I think this takes at least 15 years and would also improve the connection to Montenegro. Afterwards the politial situation could be different to today's situation, and maybe there will be a solution for the Neum passing.

If we would have a motorway through Neum corridor today (or in 5 years), the further road connection to Montenegro would also be as bad as today. If a motorway would built there in the meantime, there would be a perfect road for the whole connection after completing the Neum section!

I guess if it would make sense to implement my suggestion, construction would also not start due to the main problem with funding, isn't it?
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Old May 9th, 2013, 12:51 PM   #4403
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That's correct. Croatia has problems with funding current construction of motorways and I can't see how the motorway Slano-Dubrovnik-Ćilipi-Debeli Brijeg can be financed by country itself. On my opinion, urgent need of construction is Dubrovnik bypass and motorway from Dubrovnik to Ćilipi airport. Maybe Croatia can apply with motorway from Slano to Ćilipi to cohesion and structure funds.
The Adriatic Coastal Highway (D-8) from Ćilipi to Montenegrin border has been recently repaved and refurbished, so there is no need for motorway in next 5 to 10 years.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 02:03 PM   #4404
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I'm sure that EU money will soon flow for the connection of mainland Croatia with Dubrovnik and Montenegro. Don't forget that Montenegro is already in the process of accession to the European Union and Croatia is the only connection to the EU. So it's a logical process to work right now on the connection.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 02:33 PM   #4405
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Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
Maybe Croatia can apply with motorway from Slano to Ćilipi to cohesion and structure funds.
This would be a great section with a length of about 40 or 50km.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
The Adriatic Coastal Highway (D-8) from Ćilipi to Montenegrin border has been recently repaved and refurbished, so there is no need for motorway in next 5 to 10 years.
Starting planning today means, that construction can start in 5 to 10 years. This section has a length of about 20km. It will not be completed till 2015 or even 2020.

Wasn't there a plan to build the motorway Dubrovnik - Montenegro through Bosnian territory? Which route would be the better technical solution?
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Old May 9th, 2013, 05:02 PM   #4406
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From technical point of view I would say that the coastal route would be better than through Popovo polje/Trebinje. Don't forget that Trebinje is situated on Popovo polje, a longitudinal karst valley with absolute height of cca 230 m above the sea level, where in Montenegro there is already single tubed tunnel Sozina in operation. So, the most convenient option would be similar as Ventimiglia Motorway in Italy, which means that the motorway would pass near the coast from Slano to Herceg Novi, on average absolute height of 30-60 m above the sea level, of course with viaducts, a tunnel between Mokošica and Župa Dubrovačka, and a suspended bridge near the Kamenari-Lepetane in Boka fjord. This motorway should have projected speed of 110 kmh from Slano (Croatia) to Petrovac na Moru (Mne; similar as the Istrian Y parkway), so the route could be more aligned to the terrain and therefore more economic. Of course that there have to be closed sewage system, in case of disasters. There is one more setback of Trebinje/Popovo Polje route: all municipalities in Dubrovačko primorje should be connected to that proposed motorway (Ston, Slano, Orasac, Dubrovnik), so let say three or four more tunnels similar to Biokovo tunnel should be excavated, of course every of them equipped with Schengen system border crossing. Don't forget that it is quite unrealistic for Bosnia & Herzegovina to enter the EU before the year 2030, and this is not a nationalism (as few of fellow forumers of Slovenian origin try to impose), because B & H did not ever formally asked to enter the Union; if they bid next year, they need 10-12 years till enter and this is an optimistic scenario. Another setback: from Trebinje this route should go to Bileca, Niksic and Podgorica to avoid the Boka coastal mountains (Lovcen incl.), so there will be either great turnarounds or more tunnels to excavate.

Last edited by darko06; May 9th, 2013 at 05:24 PM.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 05:24 PM   #4407
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And let's be fair with financing (I know that this will not please forumers of Slovenian origin): The hard truth is that Croatia financed ALL motorway network on its territory in last 20 years, where Slovenia constructed at least 33% of its motorway network through the cohesion funds from the year 2004, when they entered the EU. So I think that from the EU should be fair to help Croatia to finish its motorway network.
When the EU officials, call them experts (me) or bureaucrats (keber) will make decision about Croatian motorways, either there be present Slovene and Croatian officials, or neither Slovene nor Croatian officials. Sapienti sat.

Last edited by darko06; May 9th, 2013 at 05:32 PM.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 05:54 PM   #4408
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The hard truth is that Croatia financed ALL motorway network on its territory in last 20 years
The hard truth is that Croatia is trying to finance all motorway netork by itself. If it was already financed, the toll should not be necessary and travellers should freely travel though the country without paying any kuna or lipa for using the motorways.

But the hard truth is that toll still exists.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 07:02 PM   #4409
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The hard truth is that Croatia is trying to finance all motorway netork by itself. If it was already financed, the toll should not be necessary and travellers should freely travel though the country without paying any kuna or lipa for using the motorways.

But the hard truth is that toll still exists.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 07:08 PM   #4410
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If it was already financed, the toll should not be necessary
No, not at all. Financing means that Croatia funded the building of the motorway, and now they try to get money for operating the motorway and repaying the loan.

Other states, e.g. Poland, got a lot of EU money, and now they also demand toll. They won't return the money directly to the EU, because it is a subvention and not a loan!
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Old May 9th, 2013, 08:02 PM   #4411
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Loans are not paid back yet.

Wondering, how was this story with Bechtel?
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Old May 9th, 2013, 10:48 PM   #4412
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In 2005 Foreign Minister dr. Miomir Žužul lost his job under charge of "settling" construction of Dugopolje - Bisko section to Bechtel.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 12:17 AM   #4413
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tolls are primarly for using motorways not to build them. but it's weird because if a state takes a loan to build a motorway, tax payers actually repay the loan, therefore it's their motorway, why should they pay for using it.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 12:39 AM   #4414
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For maintenance and further network enlargement.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 12:46 AM   #4415
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In 2005 Foreign Minister dr. Miomir Žužul lost his job under charge of "settling" construction of Dugopolje - Bisko section to Bechtel.
No, I mean complete story from the beginning - summary of course. I know that Bechtel started construction of A1 after Croatian army and some other companies already made some significant work, but later Bechtel lost concession or what happened?
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Old May 10th, 2013, 01:01 AM   #4416
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Maybe we should read your interpretation.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 01:04 AM   #4417
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Interpretation of what?
I'm asking, I don't know whole story.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 04:36 PM   #4418
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Quote:
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And let's be fair with financing (I know that this will not please forumers of Slovenian origin): The hard truth is that Croatia financed ALL motorway network on its territory in last 20 years, where Slovenia constructed at least 33% of its motorway network through the cohesion funds from the year 2004, when they entered the EU. So I think that from the EU should be fair to help Croatia to finish its motorway network.
It would be stupid of Croatia not to take advantage of available EU funds to complete your network and also invest in railways after you join the union. But that hard truth of yours is misleading, the EU contributed 200 million out of the 6 billion spent on our motorways in total since 1994, when the motorway construction plan was adopted. That's only 3% of the total in the last 20 years.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 06:11 PM   #4419
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It's a little more than 300 million euros (5%).

http://www.dars.si/Dokumenti/O_avtoc...ncira_208.aspx
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Old May 10th, 2013, 09:39 PM   #4420
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Thanks for the information. I am not envy on Slovenian officials, who succeeded in using cohesion funds. However, 5% is still more than 0%.
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