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Old July 8th, 2013, 11:05 PM   #4701
toonczyk
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Nice progress.

I have one more unrelated question - what are the plans for dealing with Lučko toll plazas' congestion? I've read somewhere there are plans to include Zagreb ring in the toll system, so there would be no more need for toll plazas there - is that true? Any timeline for that?
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Old July 8th, 2013, 11:23 PM   #4702
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Zagreb beltway cannot be included in toll system. The main reason is that significant parts of A3 and A4 motorways are also excluded from it (Jankomir-Sv. Nedjelja-Samobor; Ivanja Reka-Sesvete-Kraljevec-Sv. Helena; D28 expressway Sv. Helena-Vrbovec) due to the heavy suburban traffic. It is obvious that this traffic would congest relatively narrow city and suburban streets and roads. In case of A2, which is curently tolled under an Austrian company, this would mean a duplication of tollbooths after Jankomir interchange, because it is obvious that in aforementioned scenario this company will also put on toll their remaining toll free part from Jankomir to Zaprešić.

Recently also the Ivanja Reka toll booths are moved some kilometers eastwards, so the Rugvica exit will be exempted from toll.
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Old July 8th, 2013, 11:29 PM   #4703
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Hi, I have a question too:

- Considering that Croatia is sorrounded by countries with vignette system (Slovenia, Austria, Hungary) it is not planned to adopt this system to the country?
I think that system is pretty good than the normal toll collect system. Do you think in the near future that Government of Croatia is going to adopt this system?

I think that vignette system is cheaper for usual drivers but more expensive to tourist. I don't know what is the suitable system for Croatia, and for that I ask
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Old July 8th, 2013, 11:29 PM   #4704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
Nice progress.

I have one more unrelated question - what are the plans for dealing with Lučko toll plazas' congestion? I've read somewhere there are plans to include Zagreb ring in the toll system, so there would be no more need for toll plazas there - is that true? Any timeline for that?
That's not goona happen anytime soon...

But there aren't such big congestions like few years ago, because of the new Demerje toll station only for non-cash toll: ENC (electronic payment), bank cards, credit cards. Lučko remains toll station only for cash, so it's used mostly by foreigners who want to spend kunas before going home or with elderly people scared of using bank cards and unaware of ENC benefits
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Old July 8th, 2013, 11:37 PM   #4705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javimix19 View Post
Hi, I have a question too:

- Considering that Croatia is sorrounded by countries with vignette system (Slovenia, Austria, Hungary) it is not planned to adopt this system to the country?
I think that system is pretty good than the normal toll collect system. Do you think in the near future that Government of Croatia is going to adopt this system?

I think that vignette system is cheaper for usual drivers but more expensive to tourist. I don't know what is the suitable system for Croatia, and for that I ask
Motorway tolls depend very much on tourists during the summer and I think that introducing the vignette system would have negative impact (lower traffic on motorways, more cars on "old" state routes going through towns...), but also domestic motorway users would avoid motorways, because there's no such big number of frequent users that would benefit from vignette system...

On the other hand, the ENC is quite interesting thing - tolling without stopping at toll booths, 22% toll-discount (and up to 50% on some sections: Učka tunnel, Sv. Ilija tunnel), adopted on all motorways (except A2) and other non-motorway tolled roads (Krk bridge, Sv. Ilija tunnel) Also foreigners can buy the device...
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Old July 8th, 2013, 11:38 PM   #4706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
Nice progress.

I have one more unrelated question - what are the plans for dealing with Lučko toll plazas' congestion? I've read somewhere there are plans to include Zagreb ring in the toll system, so there would be no more need for toll plazas there - is that true? Any timeline for that?
ain't gonna happen. toll plazas at exits would be too congested. there are some long term plans to make wide beltway from Ivanić Grad (A3) to Zaprešić which would be integrated into closed tolling system, but that is far future.
current bypass is handling existing traffic more than enough because it bypasses city at optimal distance, not too far to reject city traffic, and not too close to be urban motorway which would be disaster for transit. in the case of significant increase there is also option of widening it on 3+3 (which should be already considered imo).

Quote:
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Recently also the Ivanja Reka toll booths are moved some kilometers eastwards, so the Rugvica exit will be exempted from toll.
actually, that toll station Ježevo is operational already and Rugvica exit is toll free.
I have a night video of new toll plaza.
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Old July 8th, 2013, 11:42 PM   #4707
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Quote:
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But there aren't such big congestions like few years ago, because of the new Demerje toll station
Obviously it helped, but not nearly enough, even on this new toll station traffic jams form sometimes. Not to mention traffic going in the other direction, which has to pass through Lučko...
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Old July 8th, 2013, 11:48 PM   #4708
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Obviously it helped, but not nearly enough, even on this new toll station traffic jams form sometimes. Not to mention traffic going in the other direction, which has to pass through Lučko...
there is congestion only 2 or 3 weekends in the whole year.
sooner there were congestions at least 3 times a week between end of June and end of August.
also waiting time on Demerje in these largest congestions is not more than 10-15 minutes. that is huge progress comparing to 2 hours waiting times at Lučko.
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Old July 8th, 2013, 11:54 PM   #4709
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in the case of significant increase there is also option of widening it on 3+3 (which should be already considered imo).
Or building a tangenziale 2+2+2+2 with outer lanes for local traffic and with existing exits, and inner lanes for transit traffic (A3) having only 2 big junctions (Lučko A3/A1 and Jakuševec A3/A11) That's more space-saving method and not so illogical (longer, not direct) route as outer ZG beltway.

Something like this exists on Split "bypass" (D8), where the local traffic (2 exits for the city) is separated from the transit traffic going north-south...
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Old July 9th, 2013, 12:08 AM   #4710
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Quote:
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Or building a tangenziale 2+2+2+2 with outer lanes for local traffic and with existing exits, and inner lanes for transit traffic (A3) having only 2 big junctions (Lučko A3/A1 and Jakuševec A3/A11)

Something like this exists on Split "bypass" (D8), where the local traffic (2 exits for the city) is separated from the transit traffic going north-south...
you mean laterals? i think that current bypass runs too far from urban area to implement that system.
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Old July 9th, 2013, 12:23 AM   #4711
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you mean laterals? i think that current bypass runs too far from urban area to implement that system.
Yes, laterals. But I said "tangenziale" to make comparison with the Italian system, where an superstrada runs parallel to the motorway, sometimes with one carriageway on each side of the motorway, like in Bologna.
I don't think it's too far from the urban area, simply because in that way we could solve 2 problems:
1) separating local and transit traffic (important mainly because today transit traffic on A3 near Zagreb is disturbed with the local one)
2) introducing closed toll system on almost the whole motorway network, solving the biggest weak point - Lučko toll station. In my proposal, local traffic lanes (lateral lanes) would be out of the tolling system
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Old July 9th, 2013, 02:12 AM   #4712
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Quote:
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Or building a tangenziale 2+2+2+2 with outer lanes for local traffic and with existing exits, and inner lanes for transit traffic (A3) having only 2 big junctions (Lučko A3/A1 and Jakuševec A3/A11) That's more space-saving method and not so illogical (longer, not direct) route as outer ZG beltway.

...
I agree that the "Tangenziale" you proposed is far better solution than "outer Zagreb" beltway.

However, Croatia is financially exhausted of building motorways, so this is (unfortunately) not going to happen anytime soon.
For now, there is an absolute priority for Pelješac bridge and Dubrovnik beltway from Orašac to Ćilipi airport in shape of an 2+2 expw without hard shoulders.
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Old July 9th, 2013, 02:58 AM   #4713
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isn't the tunnel Zagvozd-Baska voda a bit unnecesarry? Sestanovac connection is really close. Drvenik variant would seem more appropriate.
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Old July 9th, 2013, 04:38 AM   #4714
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you mean laterals?
You mean local-express lanes?

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For now, there is an absolute priority for Pelješac bridge
That's an absolutely last priority, if you're broke.
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Old July 9th, 2013, 09:33 AM   #4715
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There is no need to build a bridge to Peljesac peniscule at cost of appr. 250 mln Euro. Croatia (with help from EU who is funds provider) shall agree with BiH to build asap a motorway near Neum, in direction to Dubrovnik, and further south.
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Old July 9th, 2013, 11:28 AM   #4716
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You mean local-express lanes?

That's an absolutely last priority, if you're broke.
Agree. You're broke too. So why build a second railway line from Divača to Koper? It would be better to build a direct railway from Koper to Trieste.
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Old July 9th, 2013, 11:37 AM   #4717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hofburg View Post
isn't the tunnel Zagvozd-Baska voda a bit unnecesarry? Sestanovac connection is really close. Drvenik variant would seem more appropriate.


New tunnel ( and road) is very good solution for direction Makarska -A1-Imotski - BiH. And during summer there is lot of traffic in that direction.
But it is very expensive tunnel

I dont see any traffic for new Drvenik road. Only Vrgorac - Makarska, and they have D512.
Island of Hvar have bad roads, so it is not a good idea to use ferry Drvenik - Sućuraj instead od Split - Stari Grad.
New Drvenik road maybe in future, but not now.
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Old July 9th, 2013, 12:22 PM   #4718
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There is no need to build a bridge to Peljesac peniscule at cost of appr. 250 mln Euro. Croatia (with help from EU who is funds provider) shall agree with BiH to build asap a motorway near Neum, in direction to Dubrovnik, and further south.
These are sad, if understandable words, from country which recently build at least 1/3 of their motorway network with money from EU funds, isn't it?
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Old July 9th, 2013, 01:49 PM   #4719
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These are sad, if understandable words, from country which recently build at least 1/3 of their motorway network with money from EU funds, isn't it?
The economic situation in Croatia and Poland are not comparable. With our stagnant economy, the last thing we need is wasting money on big projects that don't pay off.

The Pelješac bridge project has sadly been hijacked as a political tool by some.
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Old July 9th, 2013, 02:01 PM   #4720
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Quote:
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Agree.
Obviously you don't.

Quote:
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You're broke too. So why build a second railway line from Divača to Koper? It would be better to build a direct railway from Koper to Trieste.
And lose competition with Trieste? Temporary "solution" is to not build anything at all, but Slovenian railways isn't the topic of this thread.
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