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Old January 23rd, 2014, 12:26 AM   #5221
Eulanthe
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Originally Posted by stickedy View Post
How do you come to the conclusion that Croatia violates any right if it builds that bridge? That's only something BiH argued. The situation is pretty clear, the bridge is built on national Croatian territory. If Croatia wants, the could forbit travelling to Neum by sea without problem since it's no international waters. And the planned bridge is high enough anyway.
No, Croatia can't just go and build the bridge. If they could have, they would just build a causeway and that would be the end of that - but they know fine well that BiH would have a strong case against them as a result. They can't block BiH's access to the sea - as we say, it's just not cricket to do so.

Does anyone know if the Bosnian Croats still have voting rights in Croatian elections? If so, no political party is going to risk upsetting them, especially as they are often said to be more Croat than the Croats.

Apparently a tunnel was considered, but rejected. I wonder why?

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Originally Posted by Jack Frost
well, i dont know about trucks, but this is certainly no problem for railway shipments, and should be therefore -i guess- neither a problem for trucks. for example, an austria-greece shipment through serbia/macedonia is a normal EU-EU shipment without any complication.
There's the TIR agreements to regulate such things, but the load will still need inspected by Croatia and Bosnia at each end. That's what the issue is - it's not possible to just drive through without being inspected by at least Croatian customs.

This is why I think a technological solution combined with a secure road is the only possibility. Building giant border crossings either side of Neum would just be ridiculous.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 12:34 AM   #5222
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50m sounds enough if the sea is shallow compared to other International Straits but it could end up in arbitration under UNCLOS and that alone could take 10 years to resolve even if Bosnia were playing silly buggers all along. Note it is not in arbitration now.

61m is an average of the Oresund and Bosphoros bridges if that is any help.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 12:54 AM   #5223
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I suppose Croatia doesn't want to get involved with such a row, especially after the mess that was the fight with Slovenia a couple of years ago.

A quick question about tourist traffic in general - does anyone know if traffic is heavy on the A1/D8 every day in summer, or is it just Saturday and Sunday when it's bad?
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 01:24 AM   #5224
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Its more a case of it being a verrrry long process if it goes to UNCLOS arbitration and 10 years could be a likely resolution timeframe.

I did say before that a Croatian road on Bosnian territory has a precedent, there were 'Dutch' roads across Germany before Schengen (by agreement) and the EU could be persuaded to lean on Bosnia to agree to some such arrangement especially as Croatia has built a very good road from Ploce to Bosnia already and could offer perhaps a transit berth in Ploce for goods along with a technical Bosnian customs presence in Ploce as well.

The whole idea is to come up with transit arrangements that save queues on borders and petty BS for travellers and goods. Neum has a crap road network inland compared to Ploce and there ain't much to do in Neum for a whole cruise ship is there. ??
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 10:48 AM   #5225
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
... that a Croatian road on Bosnian territory has a precedent, there were 'Dutch' roads across Germany before Schengen (by agreement) and the EU could be persuaded to lean on Bosnia to agree to some such arrangement especially as Croatia has built a very good road from Ploce to Bosnia already and could offer perhaps a transit berth in Ploce for goods along with a technical Bosnian customs presence in Ploce as well...

So that's the point of this conversation. To extort the EU to give customary rights to third countries (B&H) on Croatian territory. Dear Bosnian fellas, it won't work.

Perhaps it would be a better way to fix your own country, than to give a bid for entering and at least enter the EU. I know, it is a long and winding road. But it is worth of.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 11:49 AM   #5226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
I suppose Croatia doesn't want to get involved with such a row, especially after the mess that was the fight with Slovenia a couple of years ago.

A quick question about tourist traffic in general - does anyone know if traffic is heavy on the A1/D8 every day in summer, or is it just Saturday and Sunday when it's bad?
Traffic is dense but no jams. Only weekends specially saturdays there are jams around zagreb ( tolls)

Last edited by zezi; January 23rd, 2014 at 11:55 AM.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 12:02 PM   #5227
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They should have solved the Neum problem with the Dayton agreement back in the 1990s. Neum should have been given to Croatia and Bosnia, as compensation, should have received a corridory towards the sea south of Dubrovnik, separating Croatia and Montenrgro but not dividing Croatia in two parts.
Many people probably don't know that the inconvenient border assigned to Germany with the Versaille pact after WWI (the Danzig corridor separating Eastern Prussia from the rest of the country) was used by the nazis as a pretext to invade Poland in 1939 (an autobahn from Berlin to Koeningsberg was planned and partly built in the 1930s but the problem was the transit through Poland).
Currently, Estonia and Russia are negotiating a small exchange of lands to solve a similar situation (Estonian road cutting a bit of Russia).
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 01:29 PM   #5228
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It is an international strait, that is all. The Bosporus Strait is inside Turkey but Russian or Romanian ships may transit it. It had 2 bridges crossing it with a third under construction. The only issue is the height of the bridge above the water.
No, the right of passage or better the conditions for passages through Bosporus was negotiated in the Montreux Convention back in 1936. This agreement is still in power. If it wouldn't, Turkey would have full sovereignity over Bosporus and could block it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montre...of_the_Straits

UNCLOS doesn't know any "international straits". Just have a look at it.

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The Messina strait is inside Italy and is also an International Strait. Ships can transit international straits inside other countries, way it has been for a long time.
I'm not sure about it, but I guess Messina strait is no internal water since it's too deep (250 m).
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 02:00 PM   #5229
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
They should have solved the Neum problem with the Dayton agreement back in the 1990s. Neum should have been given to Croatia and Bosnia, as compensation, should have received a corridory towards the sea south of Dubrovnik, separating Croatia and Montenrgro but not dividing Croatia in two parts.
Many people probably don't know that the inconvenient border assigned to Germany with the Versaille pact after WWI (the Danzig corridor separating Eastern Prussia from the rest of the country) was used by the nazis as a pretext to invade Poland in 1939 (an autobahn from Berlin to Koeningsberg was planned and partly built in the 1930s but the problem was the transit through Poland).


Currently, Estonia and Russia are negotiating a small exchange of lands to solve a similar situation (Estonian road cutting a bit of Russia).
...E77 st.peterburg - pskov - riga ?
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 02:40 PM   #5230
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...E77 st.peterburg - pskov - riga ?
No, a gravel road to an Estonian village.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 04:37 PM   #5231
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To be precise: the Säätse boot (see wikipedia) in South-East Estonia. However that is a minor correction compared to Neum, those parts are not inhabited. Exchanging Neum for the Prevlaka peninsula would be very complicated if not impossible. For example adding Prevlaka to BiH would benefit only the Republika Srbska while Neum belongs to the other part of BiH.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 05:23 PM   #5232
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To be precise: the Säätse boot (see wikipedia) in South-East Estonia. However that is a minor correction compared to Neum, those parts are not inhabited. Exchanging Neum for the Prevlaka peninsula would be very complicated if not impossible. For example adding Prevlaka to BiH would benefit only the Republika Srbska while Neum belongs to the other part of BiH.
https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=V...p=1&sz=13&z=13
Why not simply build a bypass on estonian territory?

To be ontopic: EU is about to finance a megalomanic 15km motorway tunnel in Bulgaria just to avoid some tensions with (paid?)ecologists and (maybe?) reroute part of the funds from local companies to the pockets of big companies from the old EU like FCC, Alpine, Aktor, Terna, Vinci, etc. I can't see why they would not finance your bridge and access roads no matter the cost.

Last edited by PhirgataZFs1694; January 23rd, 2014 at 05:32 PM.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 06:05 PM   #5233
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
They should have solved the Neum problem with the Dayton agreement back in the 1990s. Neum should have been given to Croatia and Bosnia, as compensation, should have received a corridory towards the sea south of Dubrovnik, separating Croatia and Montenrgro but not dividing Croatia in two parts.
You mean Sutorina? That would be a problem as well for the Ionian-Adriatic highway as well, since one should pass 2 borders again within some kilometres.
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Old January 25th, 2014, 12:23 AM   #5234
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The position of the High Commissioner was created to make sure that the people in BiH live together in peace and that no entity or the central state make laws that would make that peace disapperar.
What a definition...

I learn now that the separatism in ex-Yugoslavia could have been avoided if a High Comissioner would have been appointed for that country in 1990.
He would have solved any dispute and avoid any war there.
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Old January 25th, 2014, 02:15 AM   #5235
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No, it wouldn't have - the wars were caused by a refusal to let democratic separation take place. The 'peace' the high commission exists for is to keep the multinational state whether it is wanted or not.

If Western Europe hadn't been so obsessed with 'ever closer union', we might have got the issue of the breakup of Yugoslavia done a lot more peaceably. Instead we got the Luxembourgish PM saying that Slovenia was too small to be an independent country, and things of a similar attitude that meant that peaceful breakup was never on the diplomatic table.

BiH is kept at peace by the memories of the last war and the years of armed peacekeepers, not the high commission sweeping issues under the carpet in a way that will eventually lead to trouble.
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Old January 25th, 2014, 02:16 AM   #5236
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What a definition...

I learn now that the separatism in ex-Yugoslavia could have been avoided if a High Comissioner would have been appointed for that country in 1990.
He would have solved any dispute and avoid any war there.
He might, if the EU had appointed him in 1470 or so. Bad EU.
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Old January 25th, 2014, 02:24 AM   #5237
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Instead we got the Luxembourgish PM saying that Slovenia was too small to be an independent country
He really said that?
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Old January 26th, 2014, 02:14 PM   #5238
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Hi. Is there anyone here who knows if there is a deadline set for the completion of the northern end of A5? I mean the Drava bridge and the last section of the freeway to the Hungarian border.

Also, what is the hype on the southern tip? AFAIK work has already commenced on the Bosnian side of the Sava river. Cca 10 kms. Is there any activity in HR?
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Old January 26th, 2014, 02:52 PM   #5239
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Also, what is the hype on the southern tip? AFAIK work has already commenced on the Bosnian side of the Sava river. Cca 10 kms. Is there any activity in HR?
I think it was annouced to be completed in 2014. The Bosnian section should be completed in November 2014 until the border (11.0km).

Last edited by MichiH; January 27th, 2014 at 06:41 PM.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 03:26 PM   #5240
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Originally Posted by Kese View Post
Hi. Is there anyone here who knows if there is a deadline set for the completion of the northern end of A5? I mean the Drava bridge and the last section of the freeway to the Hungarian border.

Also, what is the hype on the southern tip? AFAIK work has already commenced on the Bosnian side of the Sava river. Cca 10 kms. Is there any activity in HR?
i have found and article from August 2013 which says that 60% of works at section Sredanci - Svilaj are completed. and I remember traveling there this summer, I saw the tippers' activity there, so some works wer going on.

about northern branch - the date for completing bridge over Drava was 27.12.2013. it is obviously delayed nad I cannot find new date of completion. due to progress of the works I'd say up to 20 months from now on.
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