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Old October 20th, 2014, 04:05 PM   #5581
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Originally Posted by FiveYears View Post
Wouldn`t agree with last sentence. If Slovenia, Croatia, Albania, Greece and especially Montenegro agree to built as much as can in their own countries, BH wouldn`t be problem any more, or will be very small.
Well as incomes rise in Eastern Europe the area around Kotor and Dubrovnik will continue to see a very strong growth in tourism and it would be a very good idea to bypass that area inland via Trebinje instead of wrecking it with major roads along the coast, better have discreet spurs appearing from Tunnels near Dubrovnik airport etc than clawed out of a mountainside.

Kotor and Dubrovnik are one of the most spectacular destinations in all of Eastern Europe, nobody wants to see them ruined.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 04:40 PM   #5582
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Who would use this long distance motorway? Makes no sense to unload cargo in Greece and then transport it to Central Europe when it can be unloaded in the northern Adriatic sea. It will only work as a local not long distance motorway. It's really funny in a way to see how far politics will go in the quest to avoid BiH at any cost.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 06:33 PM   #5583
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Traffic (AADT) through the toll station Rupa on A7 (Rupa-Jurdani) was just 7,014 vpd last year. That's crazily low. I wonder how much traffic there is between Jurdani and Matulji; it's free of charge and closer to Rijeka.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 06:53 PM   #5584
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Traffic (AADT) through the toll station Rupa on A7 (Rupa-Jurdani) was just 7,014 vpd last year. That's crazily low. I wonder how much traffic there is between Jurdani and Matulji; it's free of charge and closer to Rijeka.
i cannot find that info atm, but it must be quite large because A7 between intersection with A8 and exit 6 RI Rujevica is every year among 5 the most congested sections in the country. also, summer traffic at toll station Rupa is cca 16000 vehicles, and that amount of traffic would make absolute disaster in summer months on that part of D8, although it doesn't look bad at all, but terrain, villages etc. would make it horrible.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 07:14 PM   #5585
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i cannot find that info atm, but it must be quite large because A7 between intersection with A8 and exit 6 RI Rujevica is every year among 5 the most congested sections in the country.
Yeah, with everyone coming from A8.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 07:49 PM   #5586
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very possible too because exit Jurdani is not in densely inhabited area, while really plenty of cars could use famous traffic-lights exit Opatija to reach RI bypass.

(btw why are you using new google maps? where is the resistance?!)
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Old October 20th, 2014, 08:38 PM   #5587
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It's really funny in a way to see how far politics will go in the quest to avoid BiH at any cost.
It is also possible to pull the reliable old Croatian trick and build the Bosnian section _initially_ as 1+1 and double it later when traffic justifies it.

It would still be congested in summer but would be OK for 10 months of the year, initially anyway. Montenegro Albania and Greece would be advised to do the same ...mainly. Some 2+2 in spots around Podgorica and Tirana perhaps but otherwise 1+1.

There was basically no motorway anywhere between Trieste and Patras in 2000 ( bar a few 1+1 sections that are now 2+2 so by 2015 that AI motorway will already have come a long way.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 08:57 PM   #5588
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(btw why are you using new google maps? where is the resistance?!)
I'm using the old version.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 09:29 PM   #5589
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I'm using the old version.
your links open as new google maps at my pc
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Old October 20th, 2014, 10:21 PM   #5590
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Firefox - new google maps
Opera 12 - old google maps
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Old October 20th, 2014, 10:29 PM   #5591
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Firefox - new google maps
Firefox at home: new google maps
Firefox at work: old google maps
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Old October 20th, 2014, 10:39 PM   #5592
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Who would use this long distance motorway? Makes no sense to unload cargo in Greece and then transport it to Central Europe when it can be unloaded in the northern Adriatic sea. It will only work as a local not long distance motorway. It's really funny in a way to see how far politics will go in the quest to avoid BiH at any cost.
It would be useful for traffic between Greece and Western Europe. Driving Venice - Igoumenitsa could be faster than taking the ferry if there is a motorway all the way. The downside of it is that freight traffic would have to deal with customs of non-EU countries so they would choose the ferry anyway. For tourists, instead, driving is probably better, since it allows to visit places along the road. Balkan border crossings (except Kosovo) aren't a big obstacle to passenger traffic.
BTW, there is already a motorway almost all the way from Greece to Central Europe (I, A, H,...). Only the section between Thessaloniki and the border with Macedonia\FYROM and a section in southern Serbia are missing.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 10:52 PM   #5593
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Also there is a section in Macedonia which is U/C and it's going to be completed by the end of 2016, also all the sections which are in Serbia should be completed by the end of 2016.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 11:51 PM   #5594
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Firefox - new google maps
Opera 12 - old google maps
i'm using Chrome
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Old October 21st, 2014, 12:33 AM   #5595
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It would be useful for traffic between Greece and Western Europe. Driving Venice - Igoumenitsa could be faster than taking the ferry if there is a motorway all the way. The downside of it is that freight traffic would have to deal with customs of non-EU countries so they would choose the ferry anyway. For tourists, instead, driving is probably better, since it allows to visit places along the road. Balkan border crossings (except Kosovo) aren't a big obstacle to passenger traffic.
BTW, there is already a motorway almost all the way from Greece to Central Europe (I, A, H,...). Only the section between Thessaloniki and the border with Macedonia\FYROM and a section in southern Serbia are missing.
This route is indeed effective and its modernisation should be taken under consideration.

Albania, for example, will be benefited because many Albanians live and work in Greece and they usually travel back to their country. The distance between Athens and Tirana is about 750-800 km long of which only 160-170 km is 2x2 motorway.

By the way, do not forget that such a motorway will give Albania a bigger chance of joining the EU.

Also, apart from Albania, sociopolitical relations between the countries crossed by that motorway would have been strengthened, as well as the trade.

In addition, wherever there is a motorway, there is also development.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 01:40 AM   #5596
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Also there is a section in Macedonia which is U/C and it's going to be completed by the end of 2016, also all the sections which are in Serbia should be completed by the end of 2016.
By the time this is built your north south route will be jammed with traffic, think Budapest and its region today compared to 10-15 years ago.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 02:05 AM   #5597
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google maps sux anyway, they load way to slow. Due to this reason I prefer http://www.bing.com/maps/
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 10:15 PM   #5598
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By the time this is built your north south route will be jammed with traffic, think Budapest and its region today compared to 10-15 years ago.
Well Serbia has a lot of transit traffic and we have more and more factory's,so that means that we have more and more domestic trucks on our motorways.
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 03:43 PM   #5599
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Traffic (AADT) through the toll station Rupa on A7 (Rupa-Jurdani) was just 7,014 vpd last year. That's crazily low. I wonder how much traffic there is between Jurdani and Matulji; it's free of charge and closer to Rijeka.
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i cannot find that info atm, but it must be quite large because A7 between intersection with A8 and exit 6 RI Rujevica is every year among 5 the most congested sections in the country. also, summer traffic at toll station Rupa is cca 16000 vehicles, and that amount of traffic would make absolute disaster in summer months on that part of D8, although it doesn't look bad at all, but terrain, villages etc. would make it horrible.
These are the numbers for 2013:
Rijeka area:
- A7 Rupa: AADT 7014, ASDT 16251
- A7 Rujevica (Rijeka bypass): AADT 26174, ASDT 33063
- D8 Pasjak: AADT 5136, ASDT 9690

Istra:
- A9 Buje: AADT 7177, ASDT 16398
- D200 Buje: AADT 4841, ASDT 6695
- D200 Plovanija: AADT 4677, ASDT 9121
- D510 Kaštel: AADT 4548, ASDT 8351

- A9 Pula: AADT 4873, ASDT 10152
- D75 Pula: AADT 10514, ASDT 13262

*The whole A9 has AADT around 6000 and ASDT around 13000 vehicles.

The source: http://www.hrvatske-ceste.hr/UserDoc...ine%202013.pdf

So, in Croatia the need for a motorway is not only conditioned by the amount of traffic during the whole year, but also by the traffic amount during summer and also by terrain. In the numbers I gave above, you can see that ASDT on touristic routes is regularly 2x bigger than in the rest of the year, so if there's no motorway on those routes, the regular roads would be very congested and unsafe. Also, sometimes the regular roads (magistrale, državne ceste/state roads) are very curvy, twisty, narrow, with big slopes (because of tough terrain) so we have built motorways to bypass such roads, like A9 instead of D75. If there's no A9, on state road D75 the average number of vehicles during the summer would be cca 16500 (13000 which now use A9 and 3500 which use D75), and you can see here how does this road looks like (*D21 is the old designation; now the whole stretch from Plovanija to Pula is D75). If there's no A7 north of Rijeka, on D8 the ASDT would be cca 20000!

The same is with A7, A8, A1 south of Split.

Conclusion - in Croatia (and probably the rest of the European southeast coast, or at least in Greece) there is a certain number of motorways whose AADT doesn't justify building a motorway, but ASDT surely does
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 06:02 PM   #5600
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D75 through Istria is terrible, I know that, but what was wrong with B9 (2-lane expressway)?
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