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Old July 27th, 2015, 12:14 AM   #5841
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Originally Posted by BL2 View Post
Albanian road connection are normal "magistralas" the same roads you have in MNE and BiH, we are talking about real motorways here.
not at all. between Milot and Vlorë there is almost continuous 4 lane expressway with only 2 or 3 smaller sections missing. (i don't know is it completely denivelated or not, but there is no such thing on MNE and BIH part).
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Old July 27th, 2015, 12:41 AM   #5842
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you are right, majority is express road (with roundabouts), i have updated myself However from Fier, where expressway ends to Ioninna e.g. Greek motorway is 210km and road from Albanian border to Bosnian border trough entire Montenegro is just 110km long, small country and in Albania you have more than 110 km of expressway missing. Not to mention Greece, they are missing the longest sections. In Bosnia around 110 km is missing as well.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 12:44 AM   #5843
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Quote:
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Albanian road connection are normal "magistralas" the same roads you have in MNE and BiH, we are talking about real motorways here.
Comparing Albania's road infrastructure with that of MNE..
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Old July 27th, 2015, 12:50 AM   #5844
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comparing missing motorway sections on Adria-Ionian "motorway"
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Old July 27th, 2015, 11:59 AM   #5845
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But the difference is that in Albania (and Greece) you have wide roads which can handle the traffic without problem (an exception is Lezha where there is often a traffic jam before the roundabout) but in Montenegro you have nothing and the priority is the connectio to Serbia.

Currently, traffic is not high enough to build motorways in Albania and Greece all the way, it would also be a waste of money if the build those motorways right now. First there need to be better connections in Montenegro. If traffic increases then, both countries (Albania and Greece) can build missing parts quickly.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 12:10 PM   #5846
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There is no significant difference in missing parts, there are more than 100km missing in AL and around 100km missing in MNE, that's the point. So MNE is just part of bigger picture. I don't see why MNE should build missing parts and GRE and AL shoud wait for MNE to build it. The traffic in MNE on the most part of the road is non existent and they don't need motorway there, existent road connecting border with Podgorica, Podgorica with Niksic and Niksic to Trebinje (BiH) are doing the job quite well for amount of traffic.

her you can see part of the road Niksic - Podgorica



here is connection to AL border

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Old July 27th, 2015, 08:02 PM   #5847
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A9-A8 junction in Kanfanar, Istria is a standard cloverleaf interchange.
It means that you can turn back and exit at the same place you entered. I wonder what will happen at the toll booth when you exit. In theory, toll should be 0.00 HRK.
https://www.google.it/maps/dir/45.14...a=!4m2!4m1!3e0
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 08:35 PM   #5848
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As I recall, entering and exiting at the same junction results in being tolled from the furthest possible distance at that point.

edit : Hrvatske Autoceste say...

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If the User exits at the same toll plaza where he/she entered, he/she then pays the tariff of the longest relation from the point of exit on that motorway route for the pertaining vehicle category.
http://hac.hr/en/toll-payment-conditions
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Old July 27th, 2015, 08:58 PM   #5849
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So, you can enter at Kanfanar, turn around the cloverleaf, exit again at Kanfanar after a couple of minutes and few hundred meters... and you'll end up to pay the longest possible route (Ploce? Serbian border?)
It's strange that they choose to use a simple cloverleaf between two closed-system toll motorways.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 09:33 PM   #5850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
So, you can enter at Kanfanar, turn around the cloverleaf, exit again at Kanfanar after a couple of minutes and few hundred meters... and you'll end up to pay the longest possible route (Ploce? Serbian border?)
It's strange that they choose to use a simple cloverleaf between two closed-system toll motorways.
The longest route which is tolled under that closed motorway system. So, on Istrian Y you won't pay for the Ploče-Kanfanar or Lipovac (SRB)-Kanfanar sections, but for Umag-Pula (80 km - 46 HRK)

The same thing you can do on Sredanci interchange (A3-A5), Marune and Rašćane rest areas on A1 where opposite directions are not separated.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 12:20 AM   #5851
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isn't it the same rule in Italy? i am sure that it is.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 12:24 AM   #5852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
So, you can enter at Kanfanar, turn around the cloverleaf, exit again at Kanfanar after a couple of minutes and few hundred meters... and you'll end up to pay the longest possible route (Ploce? Serbian border?)
It's strange that they choose to use a simple cloverleaf between two closed-system toll motorways.
I assume some common sense would be used if someone exits after a minute or so when an obvious mistake has been made.

But why didn't they integrate the two tolling systems?
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Old July 28th, 2015, 02:52 AM   #5853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BL2 View Post
There is no significant difference in missing parts, there are more than 100km missing in AL and around 100km missing in MNE, that's the point. So MNE is just part of bigger picture. I don't see why MNE should build missing parts and GRE and AL shoud wait for MNE to build it. The traffic in MNE on the most part of the road is non existent and they don't need motorway there, existent road connecting border with Podgorica, Podgorica with Niksic and Niksic to Trebinje (BiH) are doing the job quite well for amount of traffic.
First of all, the traffic between Niksic and Podgorica is rather dense. Not stop and go or really bad, but it's enough traffic that they upgrade the road step by step.

However, the problem in Montenegro is not the connection from Podgorica to Albania (they rebuild the road just a few years back and it's okay) and also not the connection to Niksic. The problem is the connection to Croatia (EU)!

If you drive on the coast to Greece (let's say on saturday during the day in summer), you have your first congestion exiting Neum, than you have stop & go past Dubrovnik. After that you have a traffic jam in Mlini before that damned traffic light. Then you wait on the border entering Montenegro for at least 30 minutes (more like 60 minutes and more). After entering Montenegro you have stop & go from Herceg Novi till the ferry in Kamenari. After getting the ferry you have stop & go through Tivat and past the airport. Then traffic again gets dense before Budva.

So now you can decide:
1. The direct way to Albania on the coast with stop and go nearly the whole way (at least through every city on the way) and a really narrow road from Bar to the border (or from Ulinj to the border, it doesn't matter). But entering Albania is mostly fast.
2. Taking the detour over Podgorica over the really good road Budva - Cetinje - Podgorcia and further to Albania. Then you have to wait entering Albania for also at least 30 to 60 minutes...

It's about 250 km from Neum to Shkodra along the coast and takes about 7 hours (at least). Or 290 km over Podgorica which take about the same time (or is much faster depending on the congestions along the coast)...

I know that driving over Trebinje and Niksic would be a good alternative or is the better choice, but about 95% of all drivers there don't know it or don't want to use that way...

So, that's one of the key problems of Montenegrin infrastructure: Connection of Croatian border and Podgorica. I don't say that building a motorway (from border BiH or border HR) would be the best solution, in my opinion an expressway from Herceg Novi over Verige bridge and Tivat to Budva will solve the primary problems there in the first step. If traffic improves further, then a motorway could be built inland.

BTW: After reaching the Albanian border, you will be in Ioaninna (about 410 km) in about 6 to 7 hours! Double the speed. That's the difference...
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Old July 28th, 2015, 03:24 AM   #5854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickedy View Post
First of all, the traffic between Niksic and Podgorica is rather dense. Not stop and go or really bad, but it's enough traffic that they upgrade the road step by step.
Road Podgorica - Niksic is far from congested, sadly i don't have precise data about traffic volume.

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Originally Posted by stickedy View Post
However, the problem in Montenegro is not the connection from Podgorica to Albania (they rebuild the road just a few years back and it's okay) and also not the connection to Niksic. The problem is the connection to Croatia (EU)!

If you drive on the coast to Greece (let's say on saturday during the day in summer), you have your first congestion exiting Neum, than you have stop & go past Dubrovnik. After that you have a traffic jam in Mlini before that damned traffic light. Then you wait on the border entering Montenegro for at least 30 minutes (more like 60 minutes and more). After entering Montenegro you have stop & go from Herceg Novi till the ferry in Kamenari. After getting the ferry you have stop & go through Tivat and past the airport. Then traffic again gets dense before Budva.
why would you go that way? Niksic - Trebinje - Stolac - you enter motorway in Medjugorje and from there it is motorway all the way to Slovenia.

Quote:
I know that driving over Trebinje and Niksic would be a good alternative or is the better choice, but about 95% of all drivers there don't know it or don't want to use that way...
What kind of argument is this? So if i want to travel from Podgorica to lets say Tirana i will drive to Bar and then to Albania, instead of taking direct road to Tuzi and Bozaj.
So this "problem" that you have described doesn't even exist.

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So, that's one of the key problems of Montenegrin infrastructure: Connection of Croatian border and Podgorica.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stickedy View Post
BTW: After reaching the Albanian border, you will be in Ioaninna (about 410 km) in about 6 to 7 hours! Double the speed. That's the difference...
Again your theory is based on wrong postulates, that someone will use the most possible complicated solution and not the most convenient and the fastest one.
Type in every navigation Ioaninna lets say Split all of them will offer road trough Trebinje.

Example google maps

BTW I have checked your theory.
I have used border crossing Bozaj with Albania as the starting point, from there to:
1. Ioaninna is 429km long and it takes 6:29min link
2. to the same distance 429km in opposite direction, using road over Trebinje and you needed 5:26h, so ONE hour less. link
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Last edited by BL2; July 28th, 2015 at 03:40 AM.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 06:40 AM   #5855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickedy
If you drive on the coast to Greece (let's say on saturday during the day in summer), you have your first congestion exiting Neum, than you have stop & go past Dubrovnik. After that you have a traffic jam in Mlini before that damned traffic light. Then you wait on the border entering Montenegro for at least 30 minutes (more like 60 minutes and more).
I think the most vital thing right now for Croatia is to sort out a motorway (or expressway...) connection between Soline (just to the north west of the Franjo Tudjman bridge and the airport in Dubrovnik, with a connector to Ivanica too. Assuming some sort of tunnel connection to the motorway from the centre of Dubrovnik, it would relieve the worst pressure in that region.

Neum isn't much of a problem and it definitely isn't worth spending money on the bridge (unless the EU pays for most of it). But once the A1 is built as to my proposals, then an extension through Konavle to the MNE border is quite feasible.

The whole A1 from Karasovici to Soline could easily be tolled at a high rate in the summer months, with a huge reduction in winter for locals. From Soline to Neum is perfectly ok - maybe some small improvements could help, but it doesn't really need much.

But building the Dubrovnik-Karasovici route would easily save a lot of time. The traffic between Dubrovnik and the airport is unbearable, and summer days are also becoming unbearable through Konavle.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 07:46 AM   #5856
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But why didn't they integrate the two tolling systems?
Because Istrian Y system (A8 & A9) is connected to the rest of croatian motorway network through Rijeka bypass, which runs almost through the city and is not tolled. Also, A8 and A9 are put under concession to a private enterprise (Bina Istra d.o.o.).
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Old July 28th, 2015, 09:21 AM   #5857
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
A9-A8 junction in Kanfanar, Istria is a standard cloverleaf interchange. It means that you can turn back and exit at the same place you entered. I wonder what will happen at the toll booth when you exit. In theory, toll should be 0.00 HRK. https://www.google.it/maps/dir/45.14...a=!4m2!4m1!3e0
In Italy its a 60 euro fine. Happened to me ones when a friend forgot his bag in my car and I returned to bring it back to him. Should have taken the next exit :/
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Old July 28th, 2015, 10:23 AM   #5858
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People obviously don't understand and it has been repeated 100 times that from MNE side contraction of any kind of motor or expressway is only feasible at north. You can forget about motorway through Boka.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 12:06 PM   #5859
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Quote:
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Road Podgorica - Niksic is far from congested, sadly i don't have precise data about traffic volume.
I don't have data either, but I've been driven there many times. And as I said, it's far from congested but traffic isn't low either. MNE wouldn't upgrade that road if it wouldn't be necessary...

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why would you go that way? Niksic - Trebinje - Stolac - you enter motorway in Medjugorje and from there it is motorway all the way to Slovenia.
It not my way, it's the way of about 95% of all vehicles entering MNE on its western side. Just count the vehicels entering MNE from Croatia and the ones entering from BiH. That's the true situation, drivers are not logic at all... It's most likely because of Sightseeing (Adriatic coast, Dubrovnik, Kotor bay), perhaps because auf lacking knowledge, I have no idea. But sadly that changes nothing on the situation...

Quote:
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What kind of argument is this? So if i want to travel from Podgorica to lets say Tirana i will drive to Bar and then to Albania, instead of taking direct road to Tuzi and Bozaj.
So this "problem" that you have described doesn't even exist.
It does exist! Just drive that way... It's not my fault that so many people drive that "bad" way. As I already wrote, the way over Trebinje would be faster and better, but traffic is much, much lower than from Croatia...

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Again your theory is based on wrong postulates, that someone will use the most possible complicated solution and not the most convenient and the fastest one.
Type in every navigation Ioaninna lets say Split all of them will offer road trough Trebinje.
As I said, the reality is different. See above...
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Old July 28th, 2015, 12:11 PM   #5860
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Quote:
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People obviously don't understand and it has been repeated 100 times that from MNE side contraction of any kind of motor or expressway is only feasible at north. You can forget about motorway through Boka.
Interesting theory, however, Montenegro and Monteput are seeing this different:
http://www.shop-montexel.com/mp/inde...=39&Itemid=165
http://www.shop-montexel.com/mp/inde...=42&Itemid=169
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