Planning: Singapore's first modern Tram - Page 4

whatzup · October 21st, 2010, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddes

Hi. welcome.

Curious, where do you think in Singapore would trams be better than monorails?

good point,

ddes. I saw on one of this future SMRT plans that there was a so called Jurong Region LRT. But plans for it came to an hold in 2006, right?

As I stay in Pasir Ris I was just imaging of having a tram serving the east and west part with the MRT station in the centre...

whatzup · October 21st, 2010, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heirloom

oooh... inductive power! could i charge my iphone on the track? or cook?

Huh, what you mean with "or"????
AND, heirloom, AND!!!

Mith252 · October 21st, 2010, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatzup

good point,

ddes. I saw on one of this future SMRT plans that there was a so called Jurong Region LRT. But plans for it came to an hold in 2006, right?

As I stay in Pasir Ris I was just imaging of having a tram serving the east and west part with the MRT station in the centre...

Hmm, that would be quite an interesting idea. However, I feel that they should test it out on a small scale first. Like for example NUS or NTU. They could also do it within a certain housing estate. The good thing about this new idea is the need for overhead wires is not there. The road however needs to be redone sue to all the devices required on the road.

I guess once wireless electricity is more efficient, it would be a more viable idea.

heirloom · October 21st, 2010, 11:24 AM

i think any implementation of trams in singapore or anywhere else for that matter should have as its first priority full right of way for trams such that trams are not affected by other modes of traffic. grade separation, traffic lights, however, whatever - trams must be made to be more time efficient if they're going to be auto-competitive (ie a good enough substitute for car usage).

extra perks, like cooking and charging of electronic devices would help for sure...

ddes · October 21st, 2010, 12:25 PM

On the contrary, I think a monorail/slow maglev/LRT/whatever WOULD be better in Jurong particularly because the town has the critical mass to support it.

I feel that trams should be implemented in places where there isn't too much passenger and vehicular traffic to begin with; any more and the case for MRTs takes over. OR places where pedestrian traffic needs to travel down quite a linear distance such as Orchard Road which WOULD have been a good idea IF it was an 8-lane bi-directional road, then one could plough the tramways in the middle but alas, it isn't.

As such, I'm more likely to support having trams running through private housing estates, those huge ones such as Lentor, Serangoon Gardens, Seletar Hills, et cetera, especially if LTA plans call for these places to be NEVER served by an MRT station... For example, a tram line running through Lentor with routes serving the TSL station nearby and Yio Chu Kang station - this way, it'll be auto-competitive. Make no mistake, trams, buses, trains individually will never be auto-competitive but a combination and good, reasonable schedules and convenience will sway car-users. Right now, bus companies are unlikely to run frequent services into such places such as service 825 which runs limited frequencies only, so those who drive drive, the others take taxi and it's unlikely they'll cab to the nearest MRT station, more likely to their final destination.

heirloom · October 21st, 2010, 05:50 PM

why do trams necessarily have to run at grade? it could on an aesthetically designed viaduct directly above orchard road with reaaaaallllly convenient connections to ground level and maybe even second level connections to buildings.

public transit will be auto competitive if roads are never improved and all effort is put focussed on improving network travel times and comfort.

Quote:

I feel that trams should be implemented in places where there isn't too much passenger and vehicular traffic to begin with; any more and the case for MRTs takes over.

what about serving as inter-town cum feeder transit in place of buses? some intertown routes are quite certainly not viable for heavy rail services.

ddes · October 22nd, 2010, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heirloom

why do trams necessarily have to run at grade? it could on an aesthetically designed viaduct directly above orchard road with reaaaaallllly convenient connections to ground level and maybe even second level connections to buildings.

public transit will be auto competitive if roads are never improved and all effort is put focussed on improving network travel times and comfort.

Trams are cheaper options because they CAN run at-grade, which reduces the costs required to build capital-intensive infrastructure such as viaducts and stations. The moment you put it on viaducts, costs will increase and at this point, the tram becomes for all intents and purposes, an LRT... there'll be tendencies to scale up the development so that it is more cost-efficient to build and operate at which point, it'll become an elevated metro line (heavy rail or medium rail or light rail) *cue mcarling's objection*

If URA and LTA strings the Holland Line through Orchard Road, with closer interstation spacing, combined with a more comprehensive underground network (which URA says they're planning), then I think there's really no need for a tram in Orchard.

heirloom · October 22nd, 2010, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddes

Trams are cheaper options because they CAN run at-grade, which reduces the costs required to build capital-intensive infrastructure such as viaducts and stations. The moment you put it on viaducts, costs will increase and at this point, the tram becomes for all intents and purposes, an LRT... there'll be tendencies to scale up the development so that it is more cost-efficient to build and operate at which point, it'll become an elevated metro line (heavy rail or medium rail or light rail) *cue mcarling's objection*

sounds like having to choose between an ipad, macbook air, and macbook pro :S

what about a monorail then? the above ground infrastructure seems very light in comparison, not sure about costs.

btw, i'm not really thinking about orchard, even if it would be great - thinking more about the nus vicinity.

mcarling · October 23rd, 2010, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddes

If URA and LTA strings the Holland Line through Orchard Road, with closer interstation spacing, combined with a more comprehensive underground network (which URA says they're planning), then I think there's really no need for a tram in Orchard.

I agree with ddes. In my opinion, the best option (even after weighing the costs) for Orchard Road would be to extend CCL1 from Dhoby Ghaut Station to Orchard Road Station with new stations near Cavenaugh Road, Grange Road, and Paragon/Ngee Ann City. A virtual interchange with Somerset Station through unpaid underground shopping passages would suffice.

ddes · October 23rd, 2010, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heirloom

sounds like having to choose between an ipad, macbook air, and macbook pro :S

what about a monorail then? the above ground infrastructure seems very light in comparison, not sure about costs.

btw, i'm not really thinking about orchard, even if it would be great - thinking more about the nus vicinity.

I think one of the biggest stumbling blocks to any form of internal NUS monorail, tram, LRT, et cetera is the fact that it MUST be free for the majority of its intended users...

Heirloom, perhaps you'd like to enlighten the forum on the high traffic areas, traffic patterns and various rush hours during academic semesters and the difference during semester break?

Although I'm somewhat familiar with the area, I'm not a student there (even though I was there for Arts Camp... LMFAO) so I'm REALLY unable to comment on what may be suitable...

Simon91 · November 18th, 2010, 03:20 PM

Has anyone read Straits Times today? My dad said he seen a large article about proposed tram network, but haven't bring the paper home...

Seloloving · November 18th, 2010, 04:30 PM

http://multiply.com/mu/lightforspiri...nmid=323943676

I find the TSL alignment more interesting. But, uh, there ya go.

Simon91 · November 18th, 2010, 05:22 PM

Thanks Seloloving!

sandstorm6299 · November 18th, 2010, 06:01 PM

Thanks Selo for the clipping. I'm "glad" ST again is using that TSL route (although with the feasibility studies, I somehow think that that may indeed turn out to be it...)

alex2008 · November 19th, 2010, 03:00 AM

I suggest that CBD public bus system should be replaced with the tram system. Too many cross country buses travelling same route in the city are clogging up the lane. A tram in the same route will replace multiple buses. Let all these cross country buses alight all passenger outside CBD (at the transfer station) and not to be allowed in CBD area. The passengers make transfer to tram at transfer stations located just outside CBD and let the trams bring them into CBD. In fact I can think of 6 trams routes that should replace 90% of the bus services within CBD.

1) Tanglin, Orchard, Marina, Raffle Blvd, Stamford Penang, Sommerset, Orchard Blvd,
2) Tiong Bahru, Outram, Victoria, Sim Ave Route, Geylang, North Bridge, South Bridge
3) Kallang, Beach Road, Shenton Way , Robinson,
4) Havelock, Church Street, Marina Blvd, Cross St.
5) Bras Basah, Serangoon, Boon Keng, Bendemeer, Jalan Besar
6) Bukit Timah, Ophir Rd, Rochor Rd,

I would also propose build the transfer station next to a MRT station such as Tiong Bahru Outram, Newtown, Lavender, Boon Keng, Little India. The passenger alighting at transfer station can decide to take the tram or MRT to the city.

ddes · November 19th, 2010, 08:54 AM

If the trams are going to run on right-of-ways previously taken up by road lanes OR are going to run on existing bus lanes, what might be the purpose of replacing buses with trams, especially if you intend to run high frequencies. I'd say the cause of congestion in the city is more due to private transportation, rather than public.

***y2koh*** · November 19th, 2010, 10:19 AM

Look at it this way. We are basically starting out with a clean slate on Marina Bay. So there are a lot of opportunities that we can explore, including redesigning typical road sections such that we can provide a network of minor streets that can accommodate right of way for trams. In the existing CBD, this can be quite challenging. Major roads are too busy to allow trams to pass through, while minor roads are too narrow to create a right-of-way for trams.

I even went as far as omitting traffic in Marina Bay altogether in one of my school projects. Providing a consolidated parking facility operating like a park-and-ride scheme at Marina Bay Station for people who choose to drive to the city, and connecting the entire area by travellators and light rail/trams. There are endless opportunities available that the current CBD had not implemented because such connectivity systems don't work, but because the existing conditions do not allow them to.

ddes · November 19th, 2010, 11:21 AM

Yes, you're right. We have a clean slate with Marina Bay but it's just one facet of downtown Singapore, and we've to address the problems in the other parts of the CBD too.

***y2koh*** · November 19th, 2010, 12:14 PM

That is why LTA is actively trying to increase the areas served by MRT by introducing more radial lines and normalising rail density within the CBD. And slowly plot by plot URA is also making sure there is at grade pedestrian connectivity between buildings in cases where it is not possible to connect everywhere through underground linkages. The only issue I have with them is that the sense of urgency is a tad missing.

alex2008 · November 20th, 2010, 01:14 AM

Yes, private transportation contribute major congestion. However, buses in CBD area add significant traffic. Just look at number bus services travel along Orchard Road. In fact, 20 bus services
(162#,124,700A,167,700,143,162,190,171,77,106,111,7,174,123,36,14,16,175,139,64). Eu Tong Seng (18 bus services) , North Bridge Road (14 bus services), Jalan Besar( 11 bus services).

See the following bus service map in CBD area and ask why so many bus service travelling the same road? So if you are new bus users or tourist, it can be challenging to identify the right bus services. This legacy problem was created when bus services was not regulated and managed properly.

http://publictransport.com.sg/publis...ap_Orchard.pdf
http://publictransport.com.sg/publis..._Chinatown.pdf
http://publictransport.com.sg/publis..._D1_211009.pdf
http://publictransport.com.sg/publis...(D1)-P-Low.pdf

Typically there are a few buses queuing at the bus stop waiting for their turns. The other major problem is that users are paying at bus entrance which add few minutes to clear users at the bus entrance. What if the users pay at the station exit instead of bus entrance, just like MRT or LRT station, it will speed up the waiting and improve user experience. Tram system can consolidate and reduce the service line. Tram station can design to accept payment at the entrance. Imagine how efficient will the CBD transport system be.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

October 21st, 2010, 11:24 AM	#64
heirloom Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 6,158 Likes (Received): 0	i think any implementation of trams in singapore or anywhere else for that matter should have as its first priority full right of way for trams such that trams are not affected by other modes of traffic. grade separation, traffic lights, however, whatever - trams must be made to be more time efficient if they're going to be auto-competitive (ie a good enough substitute for car usage). extra perks, like cooking and charging of electronic devices would help for sure...

October 21st, 2010, 12:25 PM	#65
ddes Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,233 Likes (Received): 30	On the contrary, I think a monorail/slow maglev/LRT/whatever WOULD be better in Jurong particularly because the town has the critical mass to support it. I feel that trams should be implemented in places where there isn't too much passenger and vehicular traffic to begin with; any more and the case for MRTs takes over. OR places where pedestrian traffic needs to travel down quite a linear distance such as Orchard Road which WOULD have been a good idea IF it was an 8-lane bi-directional road, then one could plough the tramways in the middle but alas, it isn't. As such, I'm more likely to support having trams running through private housing estates, those huge ones such as Lentor, Serangoon Gardens, Seletar Hills, et cetera, especially if LTA plans call for these places to be NEVER served by an MRT station... For example, a tram line running through Lentor with routes serving the TSL station nearby and Yio Chu Kang station - this way, it'll be auto-competitive. Make no mistake, trams, buses, trains individually will never be auto-competitive but a combination and good, reasonable schedules and convenience will sway car-users. Right now, bus companies are unlikely to run frequent services into such places such as service 825 which runs limited frequencies only, so those who drive drive, the others take taxi and it's unlikely they'll cab to the nearest MRT station, more likely to their final destination.

November 18th, 2010, 03:20 PM	#71
Simon91 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: People's Republic of Singapore Posts: 1,416 Likes (Received): 13	Has anyone read Straits Times today? My dad said he seen a large article about proposed tram network, but haven't bring the paper home...

November 18th, 2010, 04:30 PM	#72
Seloloving Registered User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Singapore Posts: 2,897	http://multiply.com/mu/lightforspiri...nmid=323943676 I find the TSL alignment more interesting. But, uh, there ya go.

November 18th, 2010, 05:22 PM	#73
Simon91 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: People's Republic of Singapore Posts: 1,416 Likes (Received): 13	Thanks Seloloving!

November 18th, 2010, 06:01 PM	#74
sandstorm6299 Previously in Singapore Join Date: May 2006 Location: Perth Posts: 1,499 Likes (Received): 2	Thanks Selo for the clipping. I'm "glad" ST again is using that TSL route (although with the feasibility studies, I somehow think that that may indeed turn out to be it...)

November 19th, 2010, 03:00 AM	#75
alex2008 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 10 Likes (Received): 0	I suggest that CBD public bus system should be replaced with the tram system. Too many cross country buses travelling same route in the city are clogging up the lane. A tram in the same route will replace multiple buses. Let all these cross country buses alight all passenger outside CBD (at the transfer station) and not to be allowed in CBD area. The passengers make transfer to tram at transfer stations located just outside CBD and let the trams bring them into CBD. In fact I can think of 6 trams routes that should replace 90% of the bus services within CBD. 1) Tanglin, Orchard, Marina, Raffle Blvd, Stamford Penang, Sommerset, Orchard Blvd, 2) Tiong Bahru, Outram, Victoria, Sim Ave Route, Geylang, North Bridge, South Bridge 3) Kallang, Beach Road, Shenton Way , Robinson, 4) Havelock, Church Street, Marina Blvd, Cross St. 5) Bras Basah, Serangoon, Boon Keng, Bendemeer, Jalan Besar 6) Bukit Timah, Ophir Rd, Rochor Rd, I would also propose build the transfer station next to a MRT station such as Tiong Bahru Outram, Newtown, Lavender, Boon Keng, Little India. The passenger alighting at transfer station can decide to take the tram or MRT to the city.

November 19th, 2010, 08:54 AM	#76
ddes Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,233 Likes (Received): 30	If the trams are going to run on right-of-ways previously taken up by road lanes OR are going to run on existing bus lanes, what might be the purpose of replacing buses with trams, especially if you intend to run high frequencies. I'd say the cause of congestion in the city is more due to private transportation, rather than public.

November 19th, 2010, 10:19 AM	#77
*y2koh* Moderator Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes (Received): 15	Look at it this way. We are basically starting out with a clean slate on Marina Bay. So there are a lot of opportunities that we can explore, including redesigning typical road sections such that we can provide a network of minor streets that can accommodate right of way for trams. In the existing CBD, this can be quite challenging. Major roads are too busy to allow trams to pass through, while minor roads are too narrow to create a right-of-way for trams. I even went as far as omitting traffic in Marina Bay altogether in one of my school projects. Providing a consolidated parking facility operating like a park-and-ride scheme at Marina Bay Station for people who choose to drive to the city, and connecting the entire area by travellators and light rail/trams. There are endless opportunities available that the current CBD had not implemented because such connectivity systems don't work, but because the existing conditions do not allow them to.

November 19th, 2010, 11:21 AM	#78
ddes Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,233 Likes (Received): 30	Yes, you're right. We have a clean slate with Marina Bay but it's just one facet of downtown Singapore, and we've to address the problems in the other parts of the CBD too.

November 19th, 2010, 12:14 PM	#79
*y2koh* Moderator Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes (Received): 15	That is why LTA is actively trying to increase the areas served by MRT by introducing more radial lines and normalising rail density within the CBD. And slowly plot by plot URA is also making sure there is at grade pedestrian connectivity between buildings in cases where it is not possible to connect everywhere through underground linkages. The only issue I have with them is that the sense of urgency is a tad missing.

November 20th, 2010, 01:14 AM	#80
alex2008 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 10 Likes (Received): 0	Yes, private transportation contribute major congestion. However, buses in CBD area add significant traffic. Just look at number bus services travel along Orchard Road. In fact, 20 bus services (162#,124,700A,167,700,143,162,190,171,77,106,111,7,174,123,36,14,16,175,139,64). Eu Tong Seng (18 bus services) , North Bridge Road (14 bus services), Jalan Besar( 11 bus services). See the following bus service map in CBD area and ask why so many bus service travelling the same road? So if you are new bus users or tourist, it can be challenging to identify the right bus services. This legacy problem was created when bus services was not regulated and managed properly. http://publictransport.com.sg/publis...ap_Orchard.pdf http://publictransport.com.sg/publis..._Chinatown.pdf http://publictransport.com.sg/publis..._D1_211009.pdf http://publictransport.com.sg/publis...(D1)-P-Low.pdf Typically there are a few buses queuing at the bus stop waiting for their turns. The other major problem is that users are paying at bus entrance which add few minutes to clear users at the bus entrance. What if the users pay at the station exit instead of bus entrance, just like MRT or LRT station, it will speed up the waiting and improve user experience. Tram system can consolidate and reduce the service line. Tram station can design to accept payment at the entrance. Imagine how efficient will the CBD transport system be.