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Old June 16th, 2008, 04:30 PM   #261
Qwert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Actually modern tunnels use asphalt, too. Italian tunnels use asphalt only and new Slovenian tunnels are also asphalted. Problem with concrete tunnels is in tire-ground friction, especially in wet conditions, where asphalt is much better --> increased safety. And durability of concrete tunnels is not so much better than at asphalted tunnels, which are easier and much cheaper to repair, when necessary.
I think it is ussually not raining in the tunnels so features of a pavement in wet conditions are irrelevant. Of course it can get little bit wet, but it for sure cannot cause some problems and, BTW, concrete is better in wet conditions than asphalt. It also can last for longer time than asphalt and it don't have to be maintaned as often as asphalt. To sum up concrete is definitely better choice for tunnels. Here is good article about advantages of concrete in tunnels: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...1/ai_n21359643
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Old June 16th, 2008, 10:43 PM   #262
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I think it is ussually not raining in the tunnels so features of a pavement in wet conditions are irrelevant.
Looks like you didn't drive much through long tunnels in wet weather with dense traffic. Even 3 km long concrete tunnel can be as wet in the end as in the beginning, almost no noticeable difference.

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Of course it can get little bit wet, but it for sure cannot cause some problems and, BTW, concrete is better in wet conditions than asphalt.
That's far from truth. It depends on stone aggregate used. And my experience is also, that asphalt holds tires much better in wet tunnels than concrete.

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It also can last for longer time than asphalt and it don't have to be maintaned as often as asphalt. To sum up concrete is definitely better choice for tunnels.
Looking at renovations, done in some Austrian and Slovenian tunnels (which are not very ancient), I wouldn't bet on that. Also renovation of concrete surfaces in tunnel takes much more time and is more expensive. And certainly they don't last longer. Cracks usually appear in 10 years, even less, if the ground is unstable. And those cracks are more difficult to repair than at asphalted tunnel.

I don't say that concrete is worse than asphalt, but except fire resistance concrete overall does not have so much advantages over asphalt. And to say, that asphalted tunnels are unsafe, it is rather
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Old June 16th, 2008, 11:14 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Looks like you didn't drive much through long tunnels in wet weather with dense traffic. Even 3 km long concrete tunnel can be as wet in the end as in the beginning, almost no noticeable difference.
To be honest, if you mean tunnels in Switzerland, then I didn't drive through them.

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That's far from truth. It depends on stone aggregate used. And my experience is also, that asphalt holds tires much better in wet tunnels than concrete.
Good concrete pavement is definitelly better and safer to drive, not only in wet conditions.

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Looking at renovations, done in some Austrian and Slovenian tunnels (which are not very ancient), I wouldn't bet on that. Also renovation of concrete surfaces in tunnel takes much more time and is more expensive. And certainly they don't last longer. Cracks usually appear in 10 years, even less, if the ground is unstable. And those cracks are more difficult to repair than at asphalted tunnel.
High quality asphalt can be used for about 10 years, high quality concrete can be used for 30 years. Concrete doesn't need much maintenance, but once it's cracked it must be replaced whole what is expansive of course, while in case of asphalt only cracked part has to be repaved. But asphalt requires more care. But, it's true, that concrete cannot be used if the ground is unstable

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I don't say that concrete is worse than asphalt, but except fire resistance concrete overall does not have so much advantages over asphalt. And to say, that asphalted tunnels are unsafe, it is rather
Asphalt has two fatal disadvantages - it's flamable and it's toxic. This is very important in tunnels and thus, IMO, asphalt should be used there only when it's impossible to use concrete.
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Old June 17th, 2008, 01:32 PM   #264
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Well nice conversation you guys got, but since they use asphalt in the tunnels, and its not like its the only tunnel on the A2 which actually counts loads of tunnels, i do trust them and there gotta be a reason for that
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Old June 19th, 2008, 01:10 PM   #265
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Well nice conversation you guys got, but since they use asphalt in the tunnels, and its not like its the only tunnel on the A2 which actually counts loads of tunnels, i do trust them and there gotta be a reason for that
I think the reason can be high seismic activity in Greece.
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Old June 19th, 2008, 02:33 PM   #266
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Why would that be reason?
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Old June 19th, 2008, 06:38 PM   #267
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Why would that be reason?
Concrete should not be used when the ground is unstable. Of course big earthquake would destroy whole tunnel no matter what pavement it has, but various tectonic tensions and seismic activity in smaller scale would destroy concrete much sooner than asphalt. But, this is just my theory and I'm not geologist.
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Old June 19th, 2008, 08:33 PM   #268
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Concrete pavement in tunnels is approximately so thick as asphalt pavement, therefore it is not strong enough to hold any bigger loads as those from traffic. For tunnel support thick ground arches are built, that hold tunnel tube. If the ground is very good (quality stone like limestone, dolomite or granite), then concrete ground arch under pavement is not necessary. But in most cases ground arch is built and therefore it is totally irrelevant, what sort of pavement you have in a tunnel in case of earthquake.

Also, tunnels are rarely affected by earthquakes, because of their construction manner.
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Old June 19th, 2008, 08:46 PM   #269
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Open officially the largest tunnel 4.6 km long in Greece ( Egnatia Motorway)
http://www.egnatia.eu/page/default.a...&pk=23&ap=1063

Last edited by alter100; June 21st, 2008 at 07:33 PM.
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Old June 22nd, 2008, 09:50 PM   #270
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I HOPE THESE THREADS ABOUT GREEK HIGHWAYS AREN'T DEAD!

My question is, how the pre-paid (magnetic?) cards for passing the toll stations without stopping work.

Do you need a new card for every highway section? I mean if the Attiki odos and National Athens-Lamia do have the same cards?

Oh, really - every toll station is equipped with such wireless technology? Or only special ones?

Try to figure it out on the example: passing Greece from north borders. At Thessaloniki will be the start, chceckpoint in Athens and end in Patra. Where you need which cards, where you can use ones on this trip.

And the final question: is the car attached to specific card or it is transferrable? How you charge credit on it? Prices? Etc..

THANKS!

---
posted in two threads:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...4#post21858824
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...1#post21797971
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Old June 26th, 2008, 07:28 PM   #271
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I have just seen a number of pictures in another forum, concerning the opening of the Driskos Tunnel along Egnatia Motorway.

One sign at exit 5 (Ioannina), indicates that you are directed to road 7, which is about 200km to the south (in Peloponnese). The fonts are also not according to the standards and they kept putting the prefix A before the motorway number 2 - in all other Greek motorways they never use the prefix A on signs.

It is a pity that one of the best and difficult to construct motorways in Europe to need a total replacement on all direction signs!
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Old June 30th, 2008, 11:34 AM   #272
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Is it just me or is the Roman alphabet transliteration more visible than the Greek?
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Old June 30th, 2008, 04:27 PM   #273
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Quote:
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I have just seen a number of pictures in another forum, concerning the opening of the Driskos Tunnel along Egnatia Motorway.

One sign at exit 5 (Ioannina), indicates that you are directed to road 7, which is about 200km to the south (in Peloponnese). The fonts are also not according to the standards and they kept putting the prefix A before the motorway number 2 - in all other Greek motorways they never use the prefix A on signs.

It is a pity that one of the best and difficult to construct motorways in Europe to need a total replacement on all direction signs!
Hi ea1969, no offence but i have seen you again many times in this thread complaining about the road signs. I can't tell if your complains are right or wrong. If you want my advise send an e-mail to "Egnatia Odos" and then tell us what they said.
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Old June 30th, 2008, 04:44 PM   #274
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Is it just me or is the Roman alphabet transliteration more visible than the Greek?
That wouldn't make sense the Hellenic names with Latin fonts to be more visible than the Hellenic names with Hellenic fonts.

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Old June 30th, 2008, 08:21 PM   #275
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I see that Athens is written in Greek (Athina). Oh, and Driskos Tunnel in Slovenian means Diarrhea Tunnel.
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Old June 30th, 2008, 08:21 PM   #276
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double post

What the hell is this? I only posted once.
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Old June 30th, 2008, 10:27 PM   #277
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Dear Konstantinoupolis

No problem at all for your message. I have contacted Egnatia Odos before and as you may guess they seem to blame the contractors who construct and sign specific sections. But not forget that in their site they state that all motorway shields should bear the letter A before the number. Why doesn't it appear at PATHE, Attiki Odos or everywhere else? Why did they forget to count some exits when they numbered them and now Egnatia has exits suffixed with A, B etc. (please have a look at their site)? And why in all other Greek motorways they use capital letters for destinations while in Egnatia they use both types of fonts?

The whole thing has created a lot of discussion at stadia.gr, autobahn-online.de and wegeforum.nl. The point I am a bit monotonous in coming back to the topic from time to time is that I am not feeling proud for my country to HAVE THE WORST ROAD NUMBERING SYSTEM IN EUROPE and look ironic comments in European forums!
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Old July 2nd, 2008, 12:45 PM   #278
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I saw a tunnel under construction in the Golf of Maliakos in many maps:


Was it ever projected? Will it ever be build?
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Old July 2nd, 2008, 04:37 PM   #279
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Dear ABRob

The Maliakos tunnel was called off due to environmental protests and also due to protests of the people of Lamia which would be bypassed by the proposed alignment. It was decided to upgrade the existing national road as it is shown in the map you attached. Most of the section is now complete except the Stylida bypass and the area around Thermopyles. There are some plans of a bypassed section through Evvoia Island with two bridges. It would be a very nice idea as it would cut tens of kilometres, but personally I doubt if they proceed with this for at least the next 10 years.
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Old July 2nd, 2008, 06:23 PM   #280
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Oh, nice idea of that tunnel! But I don't think it is necessary. I know, that there isn't highway yet and the road is a bit in the hills, but there is a wonderful place for views. And maybe it is good to slow down a bit... Otherwise you are able to travel unlimited speeds on Greek highways, because of their quality and newness..
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