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Old April 7th, 2014, 03:09 PM   #1841
volodaaaa
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Quote:
By and this post its obvious you are trying to downgrade the country
.

Yes, exactly:
Quote:
Btw. I love Greece and visit it every year.
Quote:
First you said that "as it has been already told (has been told by whom except you?)
ChrisZwolle and I totally agree with him:
Quote:
The Greek motorway length is particularly influenced by its two major long-distance motorways, A1 & A2, which account for approximately two-thirds of the entire motorway length in Greece.
Quote:
Greece is a seaside country (what this suppose to mean?)
It means that the country is different to other central European countries mentioned before. I don't see anything offensive in such factual statement.

Quote:
with two significant and explicit axes (you sound like you are saying that Hellas has two major roads and the rest of the country has mule-roads or something like that).
Really? Quote me. Perhaps you think about Greek transport system that way. I would not waste my time if I was someone else, but just for your information, the statement about the transportation axes was thought as my positive observation. It is not my bussines that you got it wrong

Quote:
Second, after my post with the map (where everyone by a simple look to the geographycal map can see the mountainous and the flat countries) and the stats, you continue in the same tone, "It is really hard to tell exactly, which country is mountainous and how much, because we may use different methods to evaluation."
Yeah, if you look closer, you can see, the map is an elevation map. And elevation is not exactly related to the height differences which are more responsible for particular construction price. The second question what should be referred as "mountain" and what not. Is 400 m elevation considered as mountain or not? Except three countries (Norway, Switzerland and Austria), we can't properly state which country is how mountainous.

Quote:
(what methods, dont you see the map and the statistics?) and you keep reapeating "But I think that stating "Greece is the 4th mountainous country in Europe" is indeed courageous. ;-) " when in reality as far as I know nobody claimed that.
And what about that?
Quote:
Hellas is the 2nd or 3rd most mountains country in Europe + hundreds of islands 3rd
by KONSTANTINOUPOLIS
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Old April 7th, 2014, 10:17 PM   #1842
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This will be my last reply to you, you are twisting on propose my writings in front of my eyes showing that you dont respect me. Its obvious with attitudes like that i cant make a respectfull dialogue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa
Yes, exactly:
Quote:
Quote:
Btw. I love Greece and visit it every year.
Good for you.

=================================================

You spoke about ChrisZwolle's post, he wrote this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle
"The Greek motorway length is particularly influenced by its two major long-distance motorways, A1 & A2, which account for approximately two-thirds of the entire motorway length in Greece.

Most of those countries mentioned have an actual network of motorways, as opposed to Greece which relies heavily on just four motorways (A1,2,7,8). Austria has over 30 motorways."
He potraited the road network of Hellas in a negative way

and you reply practically agreeing with him:

Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa
Guys, have you already considered other factors? Any of mentioned countries should not be comparedt hat simply. Austria is modern rich country with indeed favourable history at least since beginning of 20th century, Hungary is a flat country with specific settlement system (one huge city near the geometric centre on one hand and bunch of similar and smaller cities on the other hand) and finally, Slovakia is mountainous country previously governed by commies. The communication lines run in longitudinal direction (leading from/to Budapest) while it was part of Hungary, then in latitudinal direction after the creation of Czechoslovakia (leading from/to Prague/Bratislava) leaving the first one mentioned useful. And Greece? As it has been already told, seaside country with two significant and explicit axes. And I don't think Greece is the 4th mountainous country in Europe. (that was an answer to my post) The first is Switzerland, the second is Austria and the following should be AFAIK Norway, Germany, Romania, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Italy, etc.
=======================================

Now ...

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KONSTANTINOUPOLIS
(what methods, dont you see the map and the statistics?) and you keep reapeating "But I think that stating "Greece is the 4th mountainous country in Europe" is indeed courageous. ;-) " when in reality as far as I know nobody claimed that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa
And what about that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KONSTANTINOUPOLIS
Hellas is the 2nd or 3rd most mountains country in Europe + hundreds of islands 3rd
Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa
by KONSTANTINOUPOLIS
Thats why i said in the beggining of my post that "you are twisting on propose my writings in front of my eyes showing that you dont respect me."

First of all i didn't said that Hellas is the 4th mountainous country in Europe.
Second i said that "Hellas is the 2nd or 3rd most mountains country in Europe + hundreds of islands" and that was in my 1st post.
In my 2nd post which you avoid to quote i wrote this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KONSTANTINOUPOLIS
Now i said in my previous post that "Hellas is the 2nd or 3rd most mountainous country in Europe". I did a small search and i thing that it isn't the 2nd or 3rd most mountainous country in Europe but most likely one of the mountainous countries in Europe. Let's let the numbers do the talking:
===============================================

Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa
Really? Quote me. Perhaps you think about Greek transport system that way. I would not waste my time if I was someone else, but just for your information, the statement about the transportation axes was thought as my positive observation. It is not my bussines that you got it wrong
I wrote "you sound like you are saying that Hellas has two major roads and the rest of the country has mule-roads or something like that)."

Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa
Yeah, if you look closer, you can see, the map is an elevation map. And elevation is not exactly related to the height differences which are more responsible for particular construction price. The second question what should be referred as "mountain" and what not. Is 400 m elevation considered as mountain or not? Except three countries (Norway, Switzerland and Austria), we can't properly state which country is how mountainous.
You are only talks and talks and it seems that you are expressing wishfull thinkings. On the contrary to talks i provided facts ( http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1837 )

Do you want more facts? From the European Commission itself:

[img]http://oi59.************/2wg57xx.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi57.************/fvcl78.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi62.************/rhpemf.jpg[/img]
[img]http://oi62.************/28btjci.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi59.************/4tlqoi.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi62.************/2d937ed.jpg[/img]

Source: http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/...gne/mount9.pdf

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/...gne/mount4.pdf

===============

And that was my last post about this subject, thank you.
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Old April 7th, 2014, 10:22 PM   #1843
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KONSTANTINOUPOLIS View Post

And that was my last post about this subject, thank you.
ok then. Thank you for the information and now I hope everything is clear I have not read entire conversation, just the last page, so I have not noticed the whether the approach of particular users was negative or positive
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Old April 7th, 2014, 10:34 PM   #1844
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You show that have a big heart, sorry if my words sound harsh
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Old April 7th, 2014, 11:05 PM   #1845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KONSTANTINOUPOLIS View Post
You show that have a big heart, sorry if my words sound harsh
Sometimes people react inadequately. This time, it happened to me. Sorry once again. I did not want to bring the off-topic up.

I can't wait to throw myself into Aegean sea this year and to taste great fried mussels with tzatziki sauce.
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Old April 7th, 2014, 11:50 PM   #1846
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Thessaloniki - upgrade of the West internal ring road (U/C)

Completion: end of 2015

Some renders:









http://www.agelioforos.gr
http://www.ergonblog.gr

and this is the the K16 interchange of the West internal ring road (16/3/2014)











photos by Origami. (http://www.skyscrapercity.com)
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Old April 8th, 2014, 05:37 PM   #1847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The Greek motorway length is particularly influenced by its two major long-distance motorways, A1 & A2, which account for approximately two-thirds of the entire motorway length in Greece.

Most of those countries mentioned have an actual network of motorways, as opposed to Greece which relies heavily on just four motorways (A1,2,7,8). Austria has over 30 motorways.
Dear Chris, you state some facts there, but these facts are not always saying the truth.
Austria is a richer country and no, they have 20 motorways (not 30), according to that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahns_of_Austria

But, direct comparison between any two countries is not feasible and does not possess any logic.

Even if you want to compare the two countries, I can easily say that the length of most of these motorways is totally insignificant (18, 22, 24, 29, etc. km) and only five of them above 100 kms. The total length of the five biggest motorways in Austria is almost the same as the sum of A1 and A2.

In less than two years time, you can see that the basic core of motorways in Greece will be complete. Impressive roads with lots and lots of tunnels and bridges that I am not totally sure if they exist anywhere else in Europe. As an example the combined length of tunnels for Platamona and Tempi in both directions is 22 km. When the tunnel between France and Italy is less than 13 km.
Not to mention all the magnificent infrastructure that was/is being built for the rest of the projects (road to Patra, Ionia Odos, etc.)

Saying that "A1 & A2, which account for approximately two-thirds of the entire motorway length in Greece" is not even a proper argument, since it is reasonable that the two longer and most important highways will have a special "position" within the Greek highway system. In any case and in two years, these "two-thirds" argument will not be true anymore.

By 2016, Greece despite all factors and the very bad situation that we are in at the moment, will have a large part of the core motorways network completed. There are a lot of things that need to be done, mainly with secondary importance roads, and they will be done. But the first priority roads will be built and ready.

I am not arguing with you (not at all), but trying to help you understand how things are here. I am sorry, but whenever somebody from South Europe discusses with a Northern European, she/he always has to "explain" her/himself.

Cheers and happy driving wherever you drive!
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Old April 8th, 2014, 05:44 PM   #1848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
All of those countries mentioned are smaller than Greece and with a lower population.

On a population adjusted and on a per sq km adjusted they all have more Motorway than Greece. However they have a lot of transit traffic too and are not comparable on that basis.

It will probably be another 30 years before the road down the west coast is completed at which point, and with a good road from Tirana to Kalamata via Rio and Patras....Greece will have a Motorway network as such.
By 2016, the per sq km motorways' length in Greece will be, in analogy, almost the same as in Austria, Belgium and other countries.

The road from Ioannina to Patra is under construction and will be completed by 2016 tops - btw that's the most difficult and expensive part. The rest of the road from Ioannina to Kakavia (Albanian border) is under discussion and will be finished (not sure when exactly). The road to Pyrgos from Patra is not a difficult road to be constructed and eventually it will start and finish sooner than "in 30 years".

Greece cannot be held responsible for the road from the Greek-Albanian borders to Tirana.
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Old April 8th, 2014, 06:03 PM   #1849
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Originally Posted by lazaroskyr View Post

The road from Ioannina to Patra is under construction and will be completed by 2016 tops - btw that's the most difficult and expensive part.
Every km of it. You are joking here, surely.

The southern half _should_ be complete by 2016 is how I would phrase it and perhaps all of the southern portion to a point just north of Arta.

But you are saying Arta - Ioannina is all under construction and will all be completed by 2016 and I simply don't believe you. Sorry.

Quote:
Greece cannot be held responsible for the road from the Greek-Albanian borders to Tirana.
Of course. You are entirely correct there. And Greece wlll not build a motorway to the Albanian border absent such a road either. But I was thinking 30 years ahead.....as I said.
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Old April 8th, 2014, 09:37 PM   #1850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Every km of it. You are joking here, surely.

The southern half _should_ be complete by 2016 is how I would phrase it and perhaps all of the southern portion to a point just north of Arta.

But you are saying Arta - Ioannina is all under construction and will all be completed by 2016 and I simply don't believe you. Sorry.



Of course. You are entirely correct there. And Greece wlll not build a motorway to the Albanian border absent such a road either. But I was thinking 30 years ahead.....as I said.


Well with the completion of Tirana Elbasan motorway this summer .

And with the completion of Quke , Qafe ploce that started 1 month ago ( or said otherwise where the Tirana elbasa motorway ends ) 1 x 1 national road with speed limits of 90 km per hour ( in 2016 ) , Tirana will be only 2 hours away from the greek border .

At least for the Albanian part , a motorway would not be justifiable given the traffic .
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Old April 8th, 2014, 09:42 PM   #1851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Every km of it. You are joking here, surely.

The southern half _should_ be complete by 2016 is how I would phrase it and perhaps all of the southern portion to a point just north of Arta.

But you are saying Arta - Ioannina is all under construction and will all be completed by 2016 and I simply don't believe you. Sorry.



Of course. You are entirely correct there. And Greece wlll not build a motorway to the Albanian border absent such a road either. But I was thinking 30 years ahead.....as I said.
I am sorry too, but it is irrelevant either you believe me or not. I am just stating the information that I have.

The road from Antirrio (not Patra) to Ioannina is being constructed as we speak. And construction is speeding up simply because there are strict EU deadlines mandating that all these motorways should be built by the end of 2015-beginning of 2016.
Ionia Odos (as the road is being referred to) will be ready in two years' time - wait and see. The only part that will not be ready is going to be the tunnel of Paliovouna - but we are talking about a small part of the entire motorway. You say "should be", I say "will be". Let's see who wins.

It is true that the road between Ioannina and Kakavia does not have a contractor yet. However, we expect this to happen somewhere within 2015, so the road can be ready in 4-5 years.

And the road from Patra to Pyrgos will be included in the next ESPA. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but that's the way I am.
On the other hand I cannot understand the negative attitude of some people in here. It's not a matter of competition between countries.

I live in the UK and I enjoy the roads here - I wish the rest for all other European countries.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 12:33 AM   #1852
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Originally Posted by lazaroskyr View Post
It is true that the road between Ioannina and Kakavia does not have a contractor yet. However, we expect this to happen somewhere within 2015, so the road can be ready in 4-5 years.
Why is it even a priority in that timeframe???

The Epirus region has a population of .3m and a full east west motorway already. The road from Arta south would give the region 2 exit motorways.

Only 200000 people live in the region outside Ionnina, does it need another 100km of new motorway for these people, in difficult and genuinely mountainous terrain, other parts of Greece are more hilly than mountainy.

This is a waste of scarce resources. It does prove politicians learnt nothing.

Last edited by sponge_bob; April 9th, 2014 at 01:28 AM.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 02:02 AM   #1853
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I get your point there and up to some extent you are right.

But in general I disagree with the opinion that weights "maths" against the need for a motorway, unless you are building a motorway for 3 people.

In my mind a modern country should have as many motorways as possible. The motorway will not be used by the indigenous people only, but from visitors, tourists, people "passing by", not to forget business reasons like transportation of goods. Epirus needs that, is one of the poorest regions in Europe and needs a boost. Motorways help towards that direction, along with the new port in Igoymenitsa and the airport in Ioannina.

Yes, there are places in Greece in need of a motorway too (especially and above all, Crete). But, as I wrote before these motorways that are being built are the core of the Greek motorways network (along with the ones that already exist). We need to conclude with the core network, so that we can start building the rest.

PS. The estimate of 4-5 years for the Ioannina-Kakavia road is my personal opinion and in no way reflects the official Greek target towards the construction of this road.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 08:34 AM   #1854
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We drove to Lefkada last year and from Ioannina (I think that's where we exited Egnatia) to the island it was a real pain to get there.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 01:34 PM   #1855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Only 200000 people live in the region outside Ionnina, does it need another 100km of new motorway for these people, in difficult and genuinely mountainous terrain, other parts of Greece are more hilly than mountainy.
It is sure that motorway network in Epirus region is not build only for its residents.

You forget that around 670.000 legal Albanian immigrants lives in Greece and the economical relationship between 2 countries are very strong.
The existing road between Ioannina- Kakavia border can't fullfil the requirements of trade and traffic between the 2 countries.

I can't say if a new motorway or an advanced expressway is needed but for sure something better than current situation is required

Last edited by ariskop; April 10th, 2014 at 02:19 PM.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 03:03 PM   #1856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariskop View Post
It is sure that motorway network in Epirus region is not build only for its residents.

You forget that around 670.000 legal Albanian immigrants lives in Greece and the economical relationship between 2 countries are very strong. Albania is a kind of "ecomical satellite" of Greece.

The existing road between Ioannina- Kakavia border can't fullfil the requirements of trade and traffic between the 2 countries.

I can't say if a new motorway or an advanced expressway is needed but for sure something better than current situation is required
You might want to rephrase ... Albania is a satellite of no one .

1) Greece is Albanias 4th main trading partner ( import , export ) after Italy , Turkey and China , and the trade is very modest between the 2 countries . In fact Fyrom might surpass Greece this year as well .

2) The albanians living in greece is not even the half of your number , and in fact there is an increasing number of greek emigrants in albania nowdays ( i would bring greek and italian tv reportages but then again i dont want to spam this thread )

3) The remitances for the year 2014 from all the albanian emigrants in albania for the year 2013 equals only 4 % of the gdp ..... !!!

So all in all please do be a bit more careful with what you write ....
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Old April 9th, 2014, 03:36 PM   #1857
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I am not questioning the need to improve roads per se, only whether a half profile motorway ( one tunnel for 2 lanes) may be more appropriate than full 2+2 Motorway grade everywhere (2 tunnels of 2 lanes each)

Full motorway profile in mountains is expensive and involves lots of viaducts and tunnels to make it safe at 120kph. It is a huge expense for a region (leaving aside Albanian transit) that has fewer than 200k persons outside Arta and Ionnina spread widely about and fewer than 150k persons outside those towns and the 2 main ports.

The Croats Austrians and Slovenes often have half profile tunnels in their mountain motorways even where the road either side of the tunnel is 2+2 full profile.
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Old April 10th, 2014, 12:34 AM   #1858
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Traffic from Ioannina to Kakavia is rather low. There is currently no need for a motorway and I don't see any significant improvement of traffic in the next years.

The road from Kalpaki to Kakavia is nearly an expressway, there is really no need for an upgrade and the existing raod from Ionnina to Kalpkai could easy be upgraded with some bypasses. Only the connection to Ioannina Ring Road could be improved.
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Old April 10th, 2014, 08:46 AM   #1859
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Quote:
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Albania is a kind of "ecomical satellite" of Greece.
You should update your knowledge as is not 90s anymore.Italians and turks are buying every greek business in Alb.
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Old April 10th, 2014, 02:20 PM   #1860
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Come on guys.. Lets end up the offtopic.
I delete my original comment
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