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Old January 7th, 2009, 11:24 PM   #1981
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Originally Posted by Timoth12 View Post
Sponsor, just to make sure, A1 Strykow-Pyrzowice will be 2x3 as well.
At first I marked it but then deleted cause I wasn't sure. And I forgot S86 near Katowice which is also 3+3 for few kilometers. I'll correct map tomorrow.

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Interesting is also, that almost every major city /Trojmiasto, Poznan, Cracow, Wroclaw, Katowice agglomeration, of course Warsaw/ have or will have 3+3 bypass.
We don't know much about northern part of Cracow's ring but it is rather going to be 2+2.

There can be more 3+3 around major cities which we don't know about yet.
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Old January 8th, 2009, 12:31 AM   #1982
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I'm woundering wether A1 Piotrków-Częstochowa will be 2X3 at construction or not...

It should be
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Old January 8th, 2009, 01:05 AM   #1983
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No, it won't. And honestly, I don't see economical justification for it to be 2x3 right now.
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Old January 8th, 2009, 03:46 PM   #1984
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They should all be 3 lanes each way at least. Futureproof the things, I hazard to guess 2 lanes will fill up pretty quick and then it will cost a fortune to fix.

Still, at least they are doing something I guess, Polish roads have been dismal till now.

I was speaking to a guy who works on the new freeways, he said they specifically designed them to fall apart after 5 years so that they can charge to revamp them.
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Old January 8th, 2009, 07:42 PM   #1985
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They should all be 3 lanes each way at least. Futureproof the things, I hazard to guess 2 lanes will fill up pretty quick and then it will cost a fortune to fix.
In fact all major polish motorways are being built with a dedicated reserve for 3rd lane, so instead of spending fortune it's just a matter of laying down pavement and other minor works. In addition urban sections within bigger cities are already 2x3. Of course, I'd also like all m'ways to be 2x3 but moneywise it's not justified, since more kms can be built instead. And building overcapacity motorway, you still have to pay to maintain it.
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Old January 8th, 2009, 07:59 PM   #1986
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In fact all major polish motorways are being built with a dedicated reserve for 3rd lane (...)
This applies to all TEN-T (pdf) roads, including expressways.
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Old January 8th, 2009, 11:29 PM   #1987
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Of course, I'd also like all m'ways to be 2x3 but moneywise it's not justified, since more kms can be built instead.
Are you sure? With the current policy of "reserve in the median" (i.e. median is 12 m wide) you have to dig the same cuttings and embankments as for 2x3, and also build bridges with a deck already with an additional lane. The only thing missing is pavement. How much cheaper than full 2x3 is it? 1%? Don't make me . Why not spend that 1% more and have full 2x3 right now?

Good thing is, that current reality is that reserve is left outside the driving lanes. Only the overpasses over the motorway have to be longer, which doesn't cost that much. Embankments and smaller motorway bridges are still built only for 2x2, so they are indeed cheaper. That's because the designs for currently constructed stretches were finished before the "12m median" policy was enacted...
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Old January 9th, 2009, 01:53 PM   #1988
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Are you sure? With the current policy of "reserve in the median" (i.e. median is 12 m wide) you have to dig the same cuttings and embankments as for 2x3, and also build bridges with a deck already with an additional lane. The only thing missing is pavement. How much cheaper than full 2x3 is it? 1%? Don't make me . Why not spend that 1% more and have full 2x3 right now?
Well, I'm not an expert but I'm positive that it's more than 1%. Remember that total cost includes not only pavement but also its maintenance. Over the years that cumulative cost may get pretty high. Besides, with current motorway tolls I don't think we're going to experience major traffic volumes, as many people will still prefer to use free alternative routes (usually the ones they are using now). I also believe (or I should say I want to believe) that some people in charge who know the drill did some economic calcualtions that reasons current 2x2 status. All the more that the stretch we are discussing is a rather rural one if you look at it
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Old January 9th, 2009, 02:30 PM   #1989
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I've read Asphalt costs € 200 per tonne.
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Old January 9th, 2009, 02:47 PM   #1990
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I've read Asphalt costs € 200 per tonne.
That doesn't mean anything unless you know how much tons per km is needed, what the cost of machines is and you also have to include base layers before asphalt.
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Old January 9th, 2009, 03:47 PM   #1991
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That doesn't mean anything unless you know how much tons per km is needed, what the cost of machines is and you also have to include base layers before asphalt.
Volume = 1.000 m * 0,45 m * 7,5 m = 3.375 m³
Density of asphalts are about 2,5 g/cm³ or 2.500 kg/m³
3.375 m³ * 2.500 kg/m³ = 8.437.500 kg = 8.437,5 t
8.437,5 t * €200/t = €1.687.500

roughly €1,7m per km
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Old January 9th, 2009, 09:34 PM   #1992
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Thanks.

Currently the costs of A1 Grudziądz-Toruń and A2 Świecko-Nowy Tomyśl are around 12 mln EUR/km. It would mean that paving that 1 more lane (2 lanes total for both dirs) would cost additional ~14%. OK, so it's a lot more than 1%. Even if we didn't consider other layers of pavement than asphalt, and (on the other hand) that 12mEUR is a cost for a 2x2 with normal 4m median, not that "reserve in the median" variant.

Well, I'm getting a little convinced now. But it would be good to see the comparison of costs for "2x2 with 4m median" against "2x2 with 12m median". Pity noone gives such comparisons to the public. And somehow I don't even think that our road authorities did that math... They just decided one day "let's build with a reserve" and it was all.
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Last edited by E2rdEm; January 9th, 2009 at 09:40 PM.
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Old January 9th, 2009, 10:26 PM   #1993
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€ 200 is for Dense Asphalt Concrete 0/16 per metric tonne. DAC is at least in the Netherlands never used on motorways, but we use PAC (Porous Asphalt Concrete) . Few other countries use that on their motorways. Poland seems to use some kind of regular concrete or asphalt. Not sure which one.
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Old January 9th, 2009, 10:36 PM   #1994
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Stone mastic asphalt (SMA)
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Old January 9th, 2009, 10:42 PM   #1995
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I see, I believe it's widely used in Belgium and Germany too.
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Old January 10th, 2009, 11:54 AM   #1996
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Big pile-up today on A2 near Poznań 41 cars crashed...
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Old January 10th, 2009, 12:00 PM   #1997
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Wasn't the crash on Głogowskiej street in Poznan?
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Old January 10th, 2009, 12:09 PM   #1998
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Quote:
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What about writing both like on Hungarian signs? For example Drezno/Dresden (D) and Praga/Praga (CZ)? Everyone wuld be satisfied IMO.
Sure that looks good, until you have a small sign and long name, such as "Warszawa/Warschau". Germans use narrower font for such occasions, it looks clumsy.

Last edited by LMB; January 10th, 2009 at 12:21 PM.
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Old January 10th, 2009, 12:18 PM   #1999
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[...] How much cheaper than full 2x3 is it? 1%? Don't make me . Why not spend that 1% more and have full 2x3 right now?
That was said already: because of maintenance costs. There's no economical point to build 2x3 when highways are half filled. Yes, the traffic on Polish highways is far from saturated.
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Old January 10th, 2009, 01:04 PM   #2000
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Wasn't the crash on Głogowskiej street in Poznan?
Yes, it was on Glogowska, (DK 5)
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