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Old March 25th, 2009, 12:50 AM   #2261
ChrisZwolle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakub Warszauer View Post
A2 Warsaw - Brest is not a priority. Observed and predicted traffic on this corridor does not justify such investment. Yet.
I agree, completing the S3, S7, S8, A1, A2 west of Warszawa and an S/A6 are more important now, as well as bypasses for towns.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 12:56 AM   #2262
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Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
Might have been touched upon already, but will there be a ring road system around Warsaw?
There are no plans for ring road like Berlins A10 or Londons M25. 90% of traffic in Warsaw metropolitan area is connected directly to the city. This is why a priority is to build an innger ring road like Boulevard Périphérique in Paris. It is going to be an expressway with minimum 2x3 lanes in each direction (without counting intersection lanes). "Inner road" means that it goes either near city boundaries or through its outskirts.

Except for that, two additional ring roads are to be constructed, but they have to be financed from Warsaw's own budget, which causes serious doubts about those projects. Only short and unconnected stretches are operational. One will surround city center, the second will support expressway ring road.

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Last edited by Jakub Warszauer; March 25th, 2009 at 01:05 AM.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 01:01 AM   #2263
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I agree, completing the S3, S7, S8, A1, A2 west of Warszawa and an S/A6 are more important now, as well as bypasses for towns.
As far as I know, Szczecin - Gdańsk motorway (Road No. 6 corridor / S6 /A6) as w whole is also not justified by traffic predictions. Some bypasses yes, nothing else.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 01:03 AM   #2264
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I think it would be a great boost for tourism along the Polish coast and the Mazuric lake area. People scare off when they're used to endless Autoroutes in France. Traffic safety and regional economic developments are also arguments to build a motorway even when traffic volumes do not necessarily require it, heck, a lot of motorways in Europe are not needed from a capacity-point-of-view.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 01:22 AM   #2265
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I think it would be a great boost for tourism along the Polish coast and the Mazuric lake area. People scare off when they're used to endless Autoroutes in France. Traffic safety and regional economic developments are also arguments to build a motorway even when traffic volumes do not necessarily require it, heck, a lot of motorways in Europe are not needed from a capacity-point-of-view.
Either we decide to give priority to the most cost-benefit effecive projects or we don't. If one agrees for an exception for A6 (because of tourism) why don't give cuch a favour to A2 (in order to... strenghten our strategic relations with Belarus )?. We already made one concession, A4 to Ukraine.

Yes, I now that A6 makes sense. But lets build the main grid first, get a bit richer, and then create our own "Motorway of the Sun".

And one more thing: there will never be A6 to Mazuy region. Too many National Parks, Nature 2000 areas, Preservation Areas and so on. The whole "Rospuda Valley" dispute will seem to be a pleasant engish-gentleman discussion comparing to this. One expressway, a modernized National Road No. 16 will be a success. There is already one dispute about a proposed bypass.

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Old March 25th, 2009, 02:01 AM   #2266
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A6 in form of a motorway or just a GP-class road with town bypasses is important as a route providing a quick connection between Pomeranian cities with their remote administratory centers (Szczecin and Gdańsk) and boosting regional economies. That might put an end to ever-existing and sensless ideas of creating a Mid-Pomeranian Voivodeship led by cities of Koszalin and Słupsk, cities that claim to be neglected and isolated from their admin centers.
Tourism will hardly benefit as even with current, under-developed road network in this region, sea resorts literally swarm with domestic and foreign tourists in summer.

As for other roads, the priorities IMO should be:
S5 connecting major agglomerations of Bydgoszcz, Poznań and Wrocław and providing a quick connection A1-A4 westbound
S8 connecting Wrocław to Łódź and Warsaw
S7 Warszawa - Kielce - Kraków
S3 which is an important link connecting port of Szczecin with industrial south and 2 major western cities of Gorzów and Zielona Góra

I'm sceptical about the importance of S7 W-wa - Gdańsk. It's virtually and alternative to A1/A2 connection which would probably provide even faster connection than directly via S7
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Old March 25th, 2009, 05:23 AM   #2267
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Polish expressway network according to Majestic:



Hey, Majestic, add S11 to your priorities list...

As if to the east and north of Warsaw there was only wildlife. And maybe scarcely populated areas, where locals use horses for their transportation needs. Maybe - because noone ever goes there to check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic View Post
I'm sceptical about the importance of S7 W-wa - Gdańsk. It's virtually and alternative to A1/A2 connection which would probably provide even faster connection than directly via S7
That's very ........ interesting opinion. I mean: look at the map above...
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Old March 25th, 2009, 10:37 AM   #2268
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New section of S-7 just has started from Skarzysko to Kielce 16km:

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Old March 25th, 2009, 10:42 AM   #2269
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"I'm sceptical about the importance of S7 W-wa - Gdańsk. It's virtually and alternative to A1/A2 connection which would probably provide even faster connection than directly via S7."

I wouldn't say that via A1/A2 will be faster than via S-7, provaided that those road will appear one day.

Let's make some calculations. Distanse from Warsaw to Gdansk via A-2/A-1 is 390km, via S-7 is 320. Let's assume that we obey traffic regulations and drive 130 on motorways ans 110 on expresway. Then we have 3h via motorways and 2h 54min via expressway. I of course aware that average speed will be lower, but I had to assume something.
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Last edited by msz2; March 25th, 2009 at 11:01 AM.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 11:12 AM   #2270
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Some photos from real work on S-7:











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Old March 25th, 2009, 05:03 PM   #2271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E2rdEm View Post
Polish expressway network according to Majestic:
I'm not disupting here about which roads should and which should not be built. In the long term all planned m'ways and expy's should eventually be completed. I'm only saying which of those should be in operation within the next few years (or at least until 2015 according to the national plan of road construction) either because of high/excessive traffic volumes or because of connection between big and important cities and regions.

The whole idea behind expressways is to provide a fast and efficient connection between major cities and regions, just as motorways are supposed to provide high-capacity transit along N-S and W-E corridors. At least that's the theoretical reason for having those 2 road categories at the same time.

I strongly advocate building such roads like S19 or S12 but comparing their current traffic volumes they are nowhere as important as S5 or S7 south of Warsaw for the time being. And that's my opinion.

You can always argue that S19 between Białystok, Lublin and Rzeszów (combined population 820,000) is more neccesssary than S5 connecting Bydgoszcz, Poznań and Wrocław (pop. 1,650,000). That's also your opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E2rdEm View Post
Hey, Majestic, add S11 to your priorities list...

Nah, S11 is not justified by any traffic volumes at the moment. Besides, only the stretch north of Poznań has got any sense since southern section runs parallel to S5/A4.

If you think I am driven by any sort of local patriotism, well, that's wrong. I'm not even from Poznań and considering from where I come I should be a die hard supporter of S6 and S11 which is not the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E2rdEm View Post
As if to the east and north of Warsaw there was only wildlife. And maybe scarcely populated areas, where locals use horses for their transportation needs. Maybe - because noone ever goes there to check.
That's right, why spoil the untouched nature with an intrusive and harmful high-speed road
Seriously, every region could use a new infrastructure project every now and then but again, let's look at the traffic needs first.


Quote:
Let's make some calculations. Distanse from Warsaw to Gdansk via A-2/A-1 is 390km, via S-7 is 320. Let's assume that we obey traffic regulations and drive 130 on motorways ans 110 on expresway. Then we have 3h via motorways and 2h 54min via expressway. I of course aware that average speed will be lower, but I had to assume something.
6 mins, wow, that's really a reason to use S7 instead
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Old March 25th, 2009, 05:06 PM   #2272
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Originally Posted by Timon91 View Post
Poles do that anyway, nothing changes

Is het Nederlands nog nooit in strijd zijn met de weg?

(I am not sure is it correct).
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Old March 25th, 2009, 06:18 PM   #2273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic View Post
I'm only saying which of those should be in operation within the next few years (...) either because of high/excessive traffic volumes or because of connection between big and important cities and regions.
Yeah, you just confirmed my opinion about your statement: You just know that in the east they ride horses. That's why you know the traffic volumes are veeeery low over there.

But let's look at the facts - the AADT statistics for 2005 http://www.siskom.waw.pl/nauka-gpr.htm#gpr2005

S5, which is so very important to you:
Highest AADT: 24663 just outside Poznań, which drops to 16653 after a few kms.
Lowest AADT: 5648 north of Gniezno. Which means that the daily traffic between Poznań and Bydgoszcz (including to Gdańsk) is probably less than 5,000. Yet, to you it's very important connection between cities.

S8, where you are sure it should go no further than Warsaw:
Highest AADT is around Warsaw, which is strictly local traffic, so let's rule this out. We still have 19.775 on Radzymin-Wyszków.
Lowest AADT before Białystok is 9103. This means that daily traffic between Warszawa and Białystok is probably around 9,000 = 80% more than your "important link between cities".

Look at the DK17 going east from Lublin. The same pattern as the DK5 from Poznań - 29834 in the outskirts of the city and drops to 16874 right away. Have you noticed the numbers are slightly higher here than in Poznań?

Do I have to cite the AADT on S7 Warsaw-Gdańsk that you ruled out?


But the facts are nothing. You just know there's no traffic in the east.

I just hope the authorities will not be as prejudiced as you, and they compare real traffic volumes and real accident statistics. About the latter: have you heard the latest report where DK17 Warszawa-Lublin was considered the most dangerous road in Poland, with the highest rate of fatalities per km, mostly blamed to big traffic?
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Old March 25th, 2009, 06:55 PM   #2274
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Quote:
Yeah, you just confirmed my opinion about your statement: You just know that in the east they ride horses. That's why you know the traffic volumes are veeeery low over there.


Are you serious?

Quote:
But the facts are nothing. You just know there's no traffic in the east.
Oh my god, the more i read, the more I'm afraid you really believe in what you're saying.

Quote:
Look at the DK17 going east from Lublin. The same pattern as the DK5 from Poznań - 29834 in the outskirts of the city and drops to 16874 right away. Have you noticed the numbers are slightly higher here than in Poznań?
You're totally missing the point. You're talking about commuter traffic volumes which are always high around every city in Poland. That's why Poznań has a couple of 2x2 radial highways to handle this excessive commuter traffic for the same reason Lublin has its 2x2 DK12 stretch.

Now if you look at non-commuter traffic volumes, voila, here's the difference. Lowest on S19 route is 1,900 with an average around 4,500-5,000 while on S5 it never gets below 5,500 and A1 - Bydgoszcz and Poznań - Wrocław get 10,000 on average. Isn't that enough?

Quote:
S8, where you are sure it should go no further than Warsaw
I never said that. Traffic volume is significant and that's why it currently IS being upgraded to expressway which I fully support all the way to Białystok.

Quote:
Do I have to cite the AADT on S7 Warsaw-Gdańsk that you ruled out?
Do your homework and tell me how will the AADT change A1/A2 is finished.


I don't understand your hysterical reaction after all. You can have your own opinion about which roads should be priority and which not just as I expressed mine.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 07:35 PM   #2275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic View Post
Are you serious?
Totally serious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic View Post
Now if you look at non-commuter traffic volumes, voila, here's the difference. Lowest on S19 route is 1,900 with an average around 4,500-5,000 while on S5 it never gets below 5,500 and A1 - Bydgoszcz and Poznań - Wrocław get 10,000 on average. Isn't that enough?
No, I'm not mixing commuter traffic to this. I specially tried to isolate inter-city traffic - haven't you noticed?

I'm not advocating S19 between Białystok and Lublin. Building that road right now would be completely stupid political decision. And my rant is not about that.

It's about assuming that S5 is a vital link for the big cities, while "S7-north", S17 or "S8-east" can be postponed. (after all, you did say that S8 is enough to link Wrocław to Warszawa, further part to Białystok was not a priority in your first post). All those roads connect cities with higher population than those along S5. That's because Warsaw alone has bigger population than Gdańsk, Poznań and Wrocław combined. But it goes to show that whatever measurable criteria you try to use - you will fail. Your preference of S5 over roads in the north/east has nothing to do with the facts, it's just an opinion. But it's very popular in the western part of Poland, and I just try to question that opinion before it turns into a "fact". Am I overreacting?

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Originally Posted by Majestic View Post
[S7-north]
Do your homework and tell me how will the AADT change A1/A2 is finished.
Not much. S7 over A1+A2 is the same time, but 70 km less (= less fuel consumed = cheaper), with lower speeds (= less fuel consumed = cheaper) and free of tolls (= cheaper). Why pay more for the same "product" (travel time)?
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Old March 25th, 2009, 09:18 PM   #2276
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All those roads connect cities with higher population than those along S5. That's because Warsaw alone has bigger population than Gdańsk, Poznań and Wrocław combined.
That's just trying to be a smartass.

Quote:
Your preference of S5 over roads in the north/east has nothing to do with the facts, it's just an opinion.
Your preference of S7, S8 and S17 over roads in the west has nothing to do with the facts, it's just an opinion.

Bottomline is: I see S5, S8 and southern S7 being more vital, you, on the contrary, believe S17 and northern S7 are more important at the moment. Note that I'm talking about nearest future only, all roads you mentioned are fairly neccessary anyway.
(BTW, interestingly, in accordance with the saying that all roads lead to Rome, all of them lead to Warsaw. Are you from Warsaw possibly?)


Quote:
Not much. S7 over A1+A2 is the same time, but 70 km less (= less fuel consumed = cheaper), with lower speeds (= less fuel consumed = cheaper) and free of tolls (= cheaper). Why pay more for the same "product" (travel time)?
Thing is I meant DK7 traffic upon completion of A1/A2 not S7 which does not yet exist. With a motorway connection most of the thru-traffic would be diverted from DK7.
Obviously with S7 completed anyone in his sane mind would rather take free-of-toll expressway but that's not the point here. Expressways are not supposed to compete with motorways!
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Old March 25th, 2009, 09:49 PM   #2277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic View Post
Your preference of S7, S8 and S17 over roads in the west has nothing to do with the facts, it's just an opinion.
Oh, really? DK17 with average AADT 10,000, with peaks at 14,000 as far away from Warsaw as 50 km, and 17,000 near Lublin, with highest-in-the-country fatalities rate - should never, by any means, be preferred over DK3 with average AADT of 8-9,000, with peaks at 13,000 near Zielona Góra, which links so important cities as Gorzów Wlkp. and Zielona Góra?
Nothing to do with the facts. Right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic View Post
(BTW, interestingly, in accordance with the saying that all roads lead to Rome, all of them lead to Warsaw. Are you from Warsaw possibly?)
Look to the left of my post. My location is no secret.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic View Post
Expressways are not supposed to compete with motorways!
And you say that S7-north will compete with A1+A2? Why don't you say that S7-south will compete with A2+A1+A4? Personally, I know many people who currently go from Warsaw to Cracow over DK8+DK1+A4, bypassing DK7 completely. I've heard about those trying to go from Warsaw to Gdańsk over DK10+A1, but I really can't imagine anyone going back to the outskirts of Łódź to go to Gdańsk.

I'll try not to take this any further, but your ideas of what is necessary and what is obsolete are so... weird.
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Old March 26th, 2009, 01:02 AM   #2278
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Poland closer to Warsaw-Lodz highway

Next week the Ministry of Infrastructure will open a tender for building a highway between Warsaw and Lodz in Central Poland.

The new highway plans to be opened before the EURO 2012 Championship in Poland and Ukraine.

The ministry has decided that the road building will be divided into five parts, each being realized simultaneously. The strategy should guarantee finishing the project in time, says the government.

http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/b..._highway_.html
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Old March 26th, 2009, 03:02 AM   #2279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic View Post
6 mins, wow, that's really a reason to use S7 instead
I'd use S7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic View Post
Obviously with S7 completed anyone in his sane mind would rather take free-of-toll expressway but that's not the point here. Expressways are not supposed to compete with motorways!
Then either build a direct motorway between Warsaw and Gdańsk instead of expressway, or don't build anything at all. But as that area needs at least an expressway, go for the former option. We have a similar situation with two parallel motorways/expressways between Slovenia and Italy. One is a motorway, the other one expressway, so either upgrade it to a motorway, or stop signing SLO/I over the expressway (for local needs a motorway isn't needed). But the expressway is just a couple of kms shorter than the motorway.
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Old March 26th, 2009, 03:09 AM   #2280
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Has polish police changed colours of their cruisers?
I have never seen it before.
It looks much better than the old, ugly, dirty, dark blue.
Especially with the white doors.
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