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Old May 14th, 2009, 11:12 PM   #2561
I-275westcoastfl
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Yes we just look at the pretty pictures lol, but hey it helps my practice my bad Polish reading skills.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 01:13 PM   #2562
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There is new legislation, now interchanges and junction can be named after names of direct towns and geographical directions... not those tiny settlements just as near to the interchanges... So no more weirdo names, now we will have like Legnica, Gliwice Wschód, etc.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 01:34 PM   #2563
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That will be a big job - altering every single interchange and exit sign on all of Poland's motorways and expressways but still it will be worth doing to drag Poland's ridiculous road laws in line with the rest of Europe
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Old May 15th, 2009, 01:42 PM   #2564
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Why can't numbers be used as the main thing. In the UK, all motorway junctions have names, normally after little hamlets nearby, but aren't very public - those with local/geeky knowledge will have them, and some may appear on signs, but that's it. Normally you navigate by junction number, or road number. Major junctions include Croft (M6/M62), Catthorpe (M1/M6/A14), Thurcroft (M1/M18), Hook Moor (M1/A1(M)), Almondsbury (M4/M5), Wisley (M3/M25), Ray Hall (M5/M6), Thorney (M4/M25) - I doubt each of these names are known by more than 5% of the driving population. OK, you have South Mimms (A1(M)/M25 - known due to the services), Spaghetti Junction (M6/A38(M) - real name Gravelly Hill) and Scotch Corner (A1/A66 - the hamlet named after the junction - soon to become A1(M) junction 55) that are known by a name rather than a number by most people. However these named junctions are the exception, not the rule on the motorway/rural trunk road network.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 03:53 PM   #2565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Why can't numbers be used as the main thing ...
The answer is very simple - there are various navigation styles, just like there are various learning styles.

Under the new plans, Polish m-way junctions will be numbered as well as named. The numbers will be sequential (rather than running according to km) and names will be linked to larger towns in the vicinity of the junction. That is a pretty sensible way to go, in my opinion.

A first draft of the proposals will be ready by end of Q2 09, at which point it will go public and geeks like us will tear to shreds anything that does not make sense.

The UK, unfortunately, has an outdated system set up by someone who liked numbers. Some people do not function that way (e.g. my Dad) and need name places to navigate successfully and without stress. Most of Continental Europe is set up that way.

In a way, the UK v Continent scheme difference reminds me about trying to convince each other about the relative merits of using metric v Imperial units of measure. The first time I heard about British Thermal Unit (instead of kWh) I burst out laughing!


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Last edited by MAG; May 15th, 2009 at 06:47 PM.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 05:18 PM   #2566
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Originally Posted by MAG View Post
The answer is very simple - there are various navigation styles, just like there are various learning styles.
yes, but to go with just one is silly.
Quote:
The UK, unfortunately, has an outdated system set up by someone who liked numbers. Some people do not funtion that way (e.g. my Dad) and need name places to navigate successfully and without stress. Most of Continental Europe is set up that way.
Has it not occurred to you that the Continental system of places is older? French signage makes me wonder why Napoleon invented road numbering - they make them really small and hard to see.

Also some people cannot navigate using the Continental system. I hate navigating in France - trying to find the little number at the top of signs, having both ways lead to the same place via different routes (because the signage is too long distance) and numbers almost ignored.

What is needed is a mix between numbers and names - the UK (well, GB - NI's numbers are a complete mess and no one uses them) is the country I've seen that's closest to this mix, with the exception of the Republic of Ireland (but Ireland has got little in the way so long destinations are the nearest big town as well in a lot of cases) - the US is far more numbers, the Continent makes numbers so hard to find it's a lot more difficult, especially if you have no idea which large town is right at the edge of the country for where you need to go. Bordeaux is a long way from Nantes, so hitting Paris from Calais to go to Nantes means having to know that the road from Paris to Nantes branches off the road from Paris to Bordeaux, you need to know a rough geography of the road network, and where cities that you are going nowhere near are. At least in the UK, you can navigate by destinations that are on your route quite easily, or find the road numbers quite easily.
Quote:
In a way, the UK v Continent scheme difference reminds me about trying to convince each other about the relative merits of using metric v Imperial units of measure. The first time I heard about British Thermal Unit (instead of kWh) I burst out laughing!
I don't understand why kWh is used, rather than Megajoules - same ballpark figures (3.6 times smaller) but uses base units rather than being (1000s of Joules per second times 36000 seconds). kWh is an example of a classic bodge to try and make metric relate to reality - we use appliances that are in the ball park of 100s of Watts), whereas Imperial units are all derived from reality (which makes the maths hard when you want to switch from one unit to another, which isn't normally the case in everyday life, though is in science, hence the abandonment of imperial for science and engineering, yet the keeping of it in everyday life). BTUs are not used, as we've ditched them. However metric (or French Imperial) are so arbitrary and often abstract that they have been semi-imperialised over the years.

If I was to drive from here to my parents house I could use the following road numbers: M3-A33 from j6-M4-A404. If I was to use the Continental system of names it would be "head towards London-turn at Basingstoke North towards Reading-turn at Reading South towards London-turn at Maidenhead towards ??? (Aylesbury? Birmingham?, London?)-enter High Wycombe and head towards Amersham". 5 bits of information against 9, many of which are similar, and London appears several times (and on other routes I'd meet - have to get the right one), confusing matters.

Go with a hybrid of both systems, make people fairly fluent with both and it's win-win. This is what the British have done with road signs (though due to the superiority of it for most people and most journeys, numbers win), and also what Britain has done with measurements. Completely accidentally in the latter case. However that way you get the best of both worlds.

Last edited by sotonsi; May 15th, 2009 at 05:26 PM.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 06:59 PM   #2567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
yes, but to go with just one is silly.
Looks like you missed the point - there will be two parallel systems: names and numbers describing junction locations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
If I was to drive from here to my parents house I could use the following road numbers: M3-A33 from j6-M4-A404. If I was to use the Continental system of names ... 5 bits of information against 9
Yep, looks like you missed the point.

Under the dual Continental scheme you navigate like this:
- M3-A33 from junction_number-M4-A404 ... or
- M3-A33 from junction_name-M4-A404

Absolutely, totally, unequivocally equivalent.
It just depends whether you are a 'numbers guy' or a 'names guy'.




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Old May 15th, 2009, 07:26 PM   #2568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAG View Post
Looks like you missed the point - there will be two parallel systems: names and numbers describing junction locations.
No I guessed that, it was you who suggested that we need the Continental system, which has numbers smaller than the names and out of the way.
Quote:
Yep, looks like you missed the point.

Under the dual Continental scheme you navigate like this:
- M3-A33 from junction_number-M4-A404 ... or
- M3-A33 from junction_name-M4-A404
Indeed on a dual system you would, however, you seem to be ignorant of the fact that Western mainland Europe is not a 'dual' system, any more than the American system is (some parts of America are better than others, of course - California has a fairly good dual system, for instance), and far less so than the British and Irish systems. On a French-style system it would end up very likely that you'd be on the A34, not A33, and on a different road into High Wycombe if you get that far. You'd probably miss your turning off the M4 (especially as it would be signed either to ten places, or two, neither of which is High Wycombe).

I remember getting very lost around Paris as the wrong Bordeaux turning off the A1 was taken (A104, not A3) and then Bordeaux disappeared when we hit the A4. We had numbers but found that they were too difficult to follow - this is because France favours name-based navigation (and you can't even navigate round France with it, as it's rubbish) so heavily that it tries to make numbers very difficult to see.

As I said a mix - the French/Dutch/etc system makes numbers very hard to see and isn't a mix - it's effectively the American system, but with names not numbers that are made really really obvious to the detriment of the other.

The UK system has numbers and names the same size, save on motorway signs where road numbers are bigger (on primary route signs numbers are yellow and names are white). The place names used are relevant, rather than the other side of the country all the time and are still really really big and clear, even when the number is even bigger and clearer. It's not a perfect system, but you can do either numbers or names, though there is a number bias. In France you cannot navigate easily by numbers, even though the numbering system is fairly coherent - this is because the numbers are on top of signs, out of sightlines, and small.

We're both arguing for a dual-system, just disagreeing massively on what that would look like. I feel it would look something much more like the British system than the Continental system of France/Netherlands.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 07:46 PM   #2569
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Dudes, polskie autostrady
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Old May 15th, 2009, 11:37 PM   #2570
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Just don't - I suppose no one from outside Poland cares that much to read it.
Oh you're so wrong about that...
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Old May 16th, 2009, 01:06 AM   #2571
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Originally Posted by Majestic View Post
So what?
so, here you'll find the answer why!!!

http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35...etropolii.html

Sorry, it's only in Polish. I'm not goanna bother translating it!
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Old May 16th, 2009, 01:47 AM   #2572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigalowski View Post
so, here you'll find the answer why!!!

http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35...etropolii.html

Sorry, it's only in Polish. I'm not goanna bother translating it!
No relevance whatsoever. It does not refer to thread topic which is Polskie Autostrady.
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Old May 18th, 2009, 01:52 AM   #2573
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of course it doesn't, everyone who can read in Polish knows that, why did you ask question to unrelevant subject at first place?
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Old May 18th, 2009, 08:52 PM   #2574
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Warszawa. View from west:

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Old May 18th, 2009, 09:00 PM   #2575
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Is that the S8 under construction?
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Old May 18th, 2009, 09:02 PM   #2576
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A4

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Old May 18th, 2009, 09:04 PM   #2577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Is that the S8 under construction?
Yep
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Old May 19th, 2009, 04:15 PM   #2578
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Hey great aerials of Warsaw bebe.2006!
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Old May 19th, 2009, 04:30 PM   #2579
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S10 Stargard Szczeciński

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@DonKristoffo - Wielkie dzięki za świetną fotorelację. Wreszcie doczekałem się zdjęć autorstwa innego forumowicza.
Szkoda tylko, że postęp prac niezbyt wielki.
A skoro już zalogowałem się na forum to wrzucę trochę zdjęć zrobionych w niedzielę w rejonie węzła Lipnik i wiaduktu WD-1.
Startujemy
Morzyczyn za plecami, widok na istniejący wiadukt i powstającą łącznicę, wjazd w kierunku Bydgoszczy.


Niewiele nowego.
Przenoszę się na ścieżkę rowerową, spojrzenie w kierunku powstającej kładki.


Po drodze mijamy przekładkę instalacji wodociągowych.

Co raz bliżej kładki.



Na kładce pracowali geodeci.

Obok powstaje kładka dla zwierząt gospodarczych.




I widok ze szczytu kładki w kierunku południowym (Bydgoszcz).


Twoje życzenie jest dla mnie rozkazem.
Widok na WD-1

I trochę bardziej z boku, żeby pokazać pobocze.

I w stronę przeciwną (Szczecin). Z kładką dla pieszych i rowerzystów na pierwszym planie.

I przybliżenie.

Widok z drugiej strony kładki. Widać, że niedziela przeszkodziła w budowie nasypu.

Czas zejść na ziemię.
Szczegół podpory kładki dla zwierząt.

Tu w kałuży "dojrzewają" płyty policzkowe.

A teraz kładka dla ludzi.


Parę kroków w kierunku Szczecina i obrót. Widok na obie kładki.

Zaś w kierunku Szczecina otwiera się taki widok na trasę i łącznicę zjazdową.

Na przybliżeniu widać wystające ramię dźwigu budującego wiadukt.

Patrząc w lewo widzimy łącznicę wjazdową, od której zacząłem dzisiejszą relację.

Kolejnych kilka kroków w kierunku wiaduktu i spojrzenie w prawo na łącznicę zjazdową.

Oraz za siebie (już po raz ostatni)

I wreszcie jestem na wiadukcie.

I oto co widać z góry. Przyczółek południowy - zabetonowany.


Podpora pośrednia, jeszcze nie.


Przyczółek północny, podobnie.


I na zakończenie widok na łącznicę zjazdową Bydgoszcz - Morzyczyn.

Przepraszam, że tak dużo. Jutro relacja z okolic wiaduktu WD-1. Bedzie mniej, a więc ja tu jeszcze wrócę.
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Old May 20th, 2009, 09:10 PM   #2580
Majestic
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New much awaited road investment in Warsaw. E67/DK7 intersection is going to be upgraded to a 3-level crossing. Currently this junction is a major bottleneck in west Warsaw (radial artery crosses a road leading to the airport). It's this intersection here:



And here's a plan of the intersection:




Black - roundabout
Yellow - tunnel under roundabout
Red - overpass


Timeline: 2 years
Cost: € 38 mln
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