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Old October 26th, 2010, 02:24 PM   #5201
Mateusz
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Of course there are some excecptions to these rules as always, oh life...
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Old October 26th, 2010, 04:03 PM   #5202
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http://www.siskom.waw.pl/drogownictwo.htm
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Old October 26th, 2010, 05:36 PM   #5203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
That is correct. Personally I think it is high time we start thinking about rising speed limits to 130km/h on expressways and 160km/h on motorways (or even getting rid of default speed limits at all). But that's probably never going to happen the way things are, climate change and all.
Not yet - a few posts above yours there is a video of somebody driving over 200kph.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 07:24 PM   #5204
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[QUOTE=mcarling;65964005]The price is 1 euro per 16km. In my opinion, it's very reasonable. Someone has to pay for the roads. Why not those who use them?

Polish "A" leads mainly through fields and forests, so just try to understand that the toll are just too high compared to their standard and construction costs. The reasons are bad signed contracts and the budget gap, but that's a different case and do not want to write about it.
The rest of my opinion have already expressed "Chris" and "toonczyk" and I agree with them 100%.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 07:56 PM   #5205
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If the motorway is not of sufficient value to its users to make the cost of construction worth paying for, then the motorway should not have been built.
Could we apply this to rail projects as well? No government funding, just the users? Oh wait, we won't have much rail then...
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Old October 26th, 2010, 07:57 PM   #5206
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S6 Słupsk bypass opened today official opening is Friday.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 08:42 PM   #5207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Could we apply this to rail projects as well? No government funding, just the users? Oh wait, we won't have much rail then.
Getting people out of private cars and onto trains, especially in urban settings, is a public policy priority. Getting cars off the expressways and onto motorways is not a public policy priority.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 10:23 PM   #5208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Getting cars off the expressways and onto motorways is not a public policy priority.
But getting cars off the lower standard, dangerous roads and onto safe motorways/expressways is.
Expressways in Poland are not built as an alternative to motorway network. There is (or will be) only one high standard road in each corridor, sometimes it is an expressway, sometimes a motorway. Free roads serving as alternative routes to motorways look like this (DK92, free alternative to A2):



Do you really think it's not a public policy priority to get interregional or international traffic off roads like that and onto motorways?
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Old October 26th, 2010, 10:58 PM   #5209
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Quote:
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Could we apply this to rail projects as well? No government funding, just the users? Oh wait, we won't have much rail then...
Huh?
Don't know about the Netherlands, but in Poland our rail authority had to raise charges on using the rails, just to get the funds needed to match those offered by European Union. Talking about government funding the rail investments? =>
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Old October 26th, 2010, 11:01 PM   #5210
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So the Polish government and European union are spending € 0 per year on the rail infrastructure? Everything is funded by the rail company who gets their revenue from ticket fees only?

There is no such thing as profitable rail transport (farebox recovery ratio is generally between 30 and 50%), yet rail advocates scream bloody murder if there is an alleged subsidizing of road transport.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 11:26 PM   #5211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
But getting cars off the lower standard, dangerous roads and onto safe motorways/expressways is.

...

Do you really think it's not a public policy priority to get interregional or international traffic off roads like that and onto motorways?
Sure but, if motorways are too expensive, then build expressways, which are less expensive. I'm willing to pay for motorways. Are you?


Quote:
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So the Polish government and European union are spending € 0 per year on the rail infrastructure? Everything is funded by the rail company who gets their revenue from ticket fees only?
E2rdEm seems to be referring to matching funds.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 11:31 PM   #5212
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So the Polish government and European union are spending € 0 per year on the rail infrastructure? Everything is funded by the rail company who gets their revenue from ticket fees only?
No, it's funded by rail company who gets their revenue from rail companies who sell tickets (or move goods over rails). I'm pretty sure such a company exists in Netherlands too - it's a european regulation.

So the first company needed to raise their revenue. All of it was paid by the rail operators (companies from the second category). The passenger operators have put this raise partly into higher ticket prices, partly they got higher subsidies from local governments. But the freight rail operators don't get any subsidies - they had to pay the full price. Another way of pushing trucks onto the roads...

EDIT: and yeah, I was referring to matching funds, so only our government is to blame. EU is willing to pay some public money for rail infrastructure in Poland. Some 20% of that what is assigned to road investments...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There is no such thing as profitable rail transport (farebox recovery ratio is generally between 30 and 50%), yet rail advocates scream bloody murder if there is an alleged subsidizing of road transport.
Yeah, sure. If the road freight operators had to pay the full price of the infrastructure they're using, they would go bankrupt in a day. Rail freight pays this price and still prospers...
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Old October 26th, 2010, 11:31 PM   #5213
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I've read S8 in Warszawa is funded by the city only. Is this also the case for S2? Because I feel EU should co-fund such important projects. They are funding some low-trafficked roads as much as 80%, so I also feel EU should co-fund important high-trafficked roads (like S2), because they play a vital function in the distribution of traffic around large cities.

I can understand that EU wouldn't fund roads like Trasa N-S, Trasa Siekierkowska, Trasa Sucharskiego or DTS, but roads like S2 and S8 around Warszawa play a vital function in complemeting the national A/S network.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 11:36 PM   #5214
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Quote:
Yeah, sure. If the road freight operators had to pay the full price of the infrastructure they're using, they would go bankrupt in a day. Rail freight pays this price and still prospers...
That's not really how it works. Road freight shares the road with passenger traffic, which both pay taxes. Heavy trucks pay additional tolls. In a developed country, road-related government revenue exceeds road expenditure by a factor 2 - 5. This is not yet the case in Poland, as extraordinary investment is needed to bring the Polish road network up to the standards of a developed country.

Believe me, if Poland is as wealthy as western Europe, you will see road, auto and fuel taxes go up and road investment go down, until the point road transport is just seen as a mean to fund the regular national budget - as opposed to the funding of the service (roads) they're using.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 11:40 PM   #5215
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Quote:
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I've read S8 in Warszawa is funded by the city only.
Nope.

It was supposed to be funded only by state (GDDKiA), later it also received EU help.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 11:56 PM   #5216
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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Sure but, if motorways are too expensive, then build expressways, which are less expensive. I'm willing to pay for motorways. Are you?
We were discussing toll prices, whether or not they are too high in Poland.
We are building expressways instead of motorways, but it has nothing to do with tolls. I am willing to pay for access to higher standard roads (even though I already pay for it in my income tax, VAT for my car, all kinds of taxation on the fuel etc.), I just don't understand why motorways are tolled and expressways are not. Motorways are treated as an investment - costs of their construction are supposed to be covered by tolls over some period of time (30-40 years). Why is this the only kind of government-built infrastructure that is treated like that, and normal roads, expressways or railways are not?

But it's not really on topic. Motorway tolls are a very delicate subject on our polish board, mods may punish me somehow for mentioning this here, so I'll better be quiet

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I've read S8 in Warszawa is funded by the city only. Is this also the case for S2? Because I feel EU should co-fund such important projects. They are funding some low-trafficked roads as much as 80%, so I also feel EU should co-fund important high-trafficked roads (like S2), because they play a vital function in the distribution of traffic around large cities.
I can understand that EU wouldn't fund roads like Trasa N-S, Trasa Siekierkowska, Trasa Sucharskiego or DTS, but roads like S2 and S8 around Warszawa play a vital function in complemeting the national A/S network.
All A/S roads in Poland are funded by the government. S8 and S2 is no exception, it is funded by GDDKiA, city has nothing to do with that. S8 and S2 are co-funded by EU as well.
As far as the city goes, we are also getting some funding for smaller infrastructure projects, like Al. Jerozolimskie / Łopuszańska junction (thread).
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Old October 27th, 2010, 12:48 AM   #5217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I feel EU should co-fund such important projects. They are funding some low-trafficked roads as much as 80%, so I also feel EU should co-fund important high-trafficked roads (like S2), because they play a vital function in the distribution of traffic around large cities.

I can understand that EU wouldn't fund roads like Trasa N-S, Trasa Siekierkowska, Trasa Sucharskiego or DTS, but roads like S2 and S8 around Warszawa play a vital function in complemeting the national A/S network.
In my opinion, the best case for EU subsidies for roads would be to connect the major cities of the 2004 entrants to the road networks of the previous EU members states e.g. motorways connecting Warsaw, Katowice, Prague, Brno, Bratislava, Ljubljana, and Budapest with Berlin, Munich, Vienna, etc.

I find it difficult to believe that six and a half years after Poland joined the EU, we still don't have a motorway connecting Warsaw with Berlin (or anywhere else) yet we have loads of new roads built with EU funds in relatively obscure places. The distribution of road subsidies seems to be more political than economic.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 02:40 AM   #5218
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Quote:
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Road freight shares the road with passenger traffic, which both pay taxes. Heavy trucks pay additional tolls. In a developed country, road-related government revenue exceeds road expenditure by a factor 2 - 5.
It's irrelevant in a rail-vs-road discussion. Railways pay the same taxes as road transport (same VAT, same CIT, same fuel taxes if they use diesel, only lower excise (pol. akcyza) if they use electricity). Plus, they pay infrastructure costs. At least in Poland, road carriers don't really pay for the roads they use - only some funny vignette fee of 2600 PLN which is ca. 650 € a year. It may change in the years to come, when the electronic toll system will be introduced. But for now - 2600PLN is a daily cost of running a 1-car passenger DMU over the state-owned rail infrastructure, and a yearly cost of the truck on state-owned roads.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 09:33 AM   #5219
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Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
The price has to be considered in relation to mean salaries.
And the mean salary has to be normalized to prices ("Purchasing power parity"), which you failed to do. That way the salaries are 60% higher, because of lower prices in Eastern Europe.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 09:39 AM   #5220
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I find it difficult to believe that six and a half years after Poland joined the EU, we still don't have a motorway connecting Warsaw with Berlin (or anywhere else)
Any economic grounds for such a motorway? Is Warsaw a production hub in a quick need of a direct connection to Germany?
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