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Old November 21st, 2010, 05:36 PM   #5401
CmL86
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@ChrisZwolle
Don't you think that driving 60km/h legally within towns isn't the best idea?
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Old November 21st, 2010, 05:43 PM   #5402
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
But was the fatality reduction related to the speed limit decrease? Slovakia's traffic safety has improved drastically.

As for Poland, I think 120 km/h on 2x2 S-roads is a very good decision, but 140 km/h on A-roads is not that necessary in my opinion.
It decreased so much because of speed limit changed in 2007. We changed 60 km/h in towns to 50 km/h but on the other hand 70 km/h is on some main roads in towns where was 60 km/h before if there are no pedestrians. That exactly what Poland should do even if you have som many crowded roads but no motorways. So as you said Chris, 120 km/h on S-roads might be really good ane useful decision.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 05:51 PM   #5403
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@ChrisZwolle
Don't you think that driving 60km/h legally within towns isn't the best idea?
While 50 km/h is the default limit within towns in almost all of Europe, there are many urban roads where 50 km/h is absolutely ridiculous. Besides that, speed limits need to be enforced, not by constant speed traps, but by realigning a road so that 50 km/h feels natural. Nobody is going to drive 50 km/h on a straight wide road with only a sign that says "town name". Then either the road design or the speed limit is not correct.

The main problem of Poland right now is driving under influence and reckless driving on rural roads. The latter can be reduced by building more 2x2 S/A-roads.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 06:14 PM   #5404
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The main problem of Poland right now is driving under influence and reckless driving on rural roads.
I totally agree you. I just mean that it's not the right way.
We should increase, first of all, ridiculously low fines, but we do something exactly opposite. We set the rule that you can't be punished for exceeding speed "just" for 10km/h.
But anyway, I don't mind increasing the speed limits on S and even A roads, I just wish we did anything to increase safety at the same time.
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Gdyby potężny samowładny monarcha z północy wiedział, jak niebezpieczny wróg grozi mu w dziełach Chopina, w prostych melodiach jego mazurków, zabroniłby tej muzyki. Dzieła Chopina to armaty ukryte w kwiatach.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 06:28 PM   #5405
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Well, building a large motorway / expressway network will significantly decrease traffic fatalities. We saw such a large reduction in Spain where they constructed almost 10.000 kilometers of motorway in the past 15 years. Spain is now one of the safest countries in Europe.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 06:35 PM   #5406
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Yeah, building new roads is very important, but it's not enough. As you said our problems are driving under influence and reckless driving on rural roads. To change that we should change the drivers' mentality, because alcohol and rural roads will always exist .
And we won't change the mentality by increasing the speed limits .
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Gdyby potężny samowładny monarcha z północy wiedział, jak niebezpieczny wróg grozi mu w dziełach Chopina, w prostych melodiach jego mazurków, zabroniłby tej muzyki. Dzieła Chopina to armaty ukryte w kwiatach.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 06:42 PM   #5407
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Well, there are basically two ways to approach the DUI-problem; first, you need to create some kind of social awareness that people find it unacceptable that relatives / friends drink and drive. This is a long process that will never wipe out DUI completely. Secondly, you need to increase enforcement, strict laws are one thing, but if you never get caught, people do not take it seriously. However, enforcing alcohol limits is a costly operation that will require many hours and can not be automated, hence most authorities rather invest in speed enforcement, because it cost less and the revenue is high.

However, the police force is not created to generate revenue, but increase safety.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 06:52 PM   #5408
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However, the police force is not created to generate revenue, but increase safety.
You know, I think that when it comes to Poland, majority of problems connected with breaking traffic regulations would disappear, if these ridiculous fines were increased tenfold . It's as simple as increasing the speed limits (it's even cheaper). And I'm not the only one, who think like that...
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Gdyby potężny samowładny monarcha z północy wiedział, jak niebezpieczny wróg grozi mu w dziełach Chopina, w prostych melodiach jego mazurków, zabroniłby tej muzyki. Dzieła Chopina to armaty ukryte w kwiatach.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 07:55 PM   #5409
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You know, I think that when it comes to Poland, majority of problems connected with breaking traffic regulations would disappear, if these ridiculous fines were increased tenfold . It's as simple as increasing the speed limits (it's even cheaper). And I'm not the only one, who think like that...
I totally agree. The highest fine you can get for a single offence is 500zl. This is riddiculously low.

There is also a point system. The idea is that you get 24 point limit every year and if you exceed it, you have to take driving exam again. The highest point count you can get for a single offence is 10, for example for speeding over 50 kph or DUI. So, for driving say, 110 km/h in urban area you get a fine of 500zl (under 130 euros) and 10 points. This is as low as it can get. Compare it to any EU country. The 24 point limit is also very generous - this means that you have to be caught doing at least 2 serious road offences and one smaller during a single year. This is a lot, I'm surprised that there are people that exceed it - this only tells how bad driving in Poland is.

Note that there are no rules that would allow the police to take your driving licence for a month or two. For now, the only way of loosing your licence, at least temporarily, is to cause an accident with fatalities while being under influence. And it can only be imposed by the court.

For me it would be reasonable to reduce the point limit to around 15 and raise fines by 100%.

Last edited by marobara; November 21st, 2010 at 08:02 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 10:26 PM   #5410
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Two major problems for Poland in terms of traffic are drunk driving and overspeeding on non modernised DK roads that carry long range journeys.


Drunk and stoned....................
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 07:27 AM   #5411
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Yeah, building new roads is very important, but it's not enough. As you said our problems are driving under influence and reckless driving on rural roads. To change that we should change the drivers' mentality, because alcohol and rural roads will always exist .
And we won't change the mentality by increasing the speed limits .
Rural roads will always exist, but building new S roads will get traffic off these rural roads, including these 'reckless' drivers. Most of these 'reckless' drivers are simply in a hurry (whether justified or not) and building S roads will certainly get these guys onto the safer motorways. Meanwhile, overall traffic on local rural roads will also decrease dramatically and the local 'reckless' drivers will become less of a threat (less cars to pass).

The lack of motorways is a huge concern to road safety in Poland as most drivers (myself included) don't want to spend over 5 hours traveling a few hundred km in horrible traffic on thin inadequate roads. This just breeds overaggressive fast driving.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 09:13 AM   #5412
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Well, there are basically two ways to approach the DUI-problem; [...] you need to increase enforcement, strict laws are one thing, but if you never get caught, people do not take it seriously.
You are implying that if people get caught, they will take it seriously. That does not work everywhere.

The problem is that Poland is not one nation, but at least three (cf. history 1795-1918). In some parts of Poland even a bus driver, caught DUI, will be excused by his family (an actual example I witnessed!). Surely most of them do not drive UI, but those who do have the world and its laws up the end of their digestive system. There are multiple cases of people going to jail because they caused an accident doing DUI, having lost their driving licences for doing DUI. Maybe whipping could help. (Readers please remember, this is not the average, but the number of such people are still shocking).

So the laws that are often seen excessive by some people in Poland are indeed too lax for others. This will not change until most people realize that such thing as 40 million people creating one nation is a utopia. Then a federalization can occur, and laws can be different in different places inhabited by completely different people.

As for whipping, the problem is that Poland is too poor to implement better correctional schemes, such as "community service" as punishment, but it would surely work better than "1000 zł and ten points".
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 09:39 AM   #5413
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....The problem is that Poland is not one nation, but at least three (cf. history 1795-1918)....

unless I attended wrong school, but there is only one major nation in Poland (over 90%).

I believe you rather meant three different approaches/cultures
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 10:44 AM   #5414
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unless I attended wrong school, but there is only one major nation in Poland (over 90%).

I believe you rather meant three different approaches/cultures
That's right. Poland has very small ethic diversity (over 96% Poles). During WWII most of the Jewish community was killed, Ukrainian, Lithuanian and Belarusians stay on the east side after border shifts, and most of German people was expelled.

Before WWII Poland was multicultural, but now it is one of the most homogeneous country in Europe.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 11:08 AM   #5415
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That's right. Poland has very small ethic diversity (over 96% Poles). During WWII most of the Jewish community was killed, Ukrainian, Lithuanian and Belarusians stay on the east side after border shifts, and most of German people was expelled.

Before WWII Poland was multicultural, but now it is one of the most homogeneous country in Europe.

96% are Poles but most of them has german descent like in Upper Silesia, Wilkopolska or Pomerania near Gdańsk, even in Mazuria, many Polish people has jewish roots too and other.

We are one nation but we have different genes.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 01:07 PM   #5416
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We are one nation but we have different genes.
Genetic diversity is a good thing, but what does all this have to do with roads?
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 01:08 PM   #5417
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Well, about those drunken drivers, yes they are a problem but not so long ago I've read some research according to which the most dangerous drivers in Poland weren't drunken people but middle aged women... I'm not joking, I remember that some interlocutors were complaing that this common view that drunkards are the main problem is a cause that police is insensitive to other high risk groups of drivers. What they were claiming was that injures in accidents involving middle aged women were more serious than usual statistically speaking.

Unfortunatelly I cann't find the source of that Anyway it was only some research, maybe they were wrong...
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 02:25 PM   #5418
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Genetic diversity is a good thing, but what does all this have to do with roads?
I made reference to previous posts. The mentality also has a big impact on safety.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 10:58 PM   #5419
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A2 highway Świecko-Nowy Tomyśl construction site. Section 5.1 from Interchange Świecko to Interchange Rzepin.

A2 highway Świecko-Nowy Tomyśl construction site. Section 5.1 from Interchange Świecko to Interchange Rzepin.



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45.Jedziemy pasem włączania od strony Słubic.


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50.Po lewej stronie widać początek betonu nawierchniowego i tak aż do WD5.


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55.Przejeżdżamy po WA2 pod nim przebiega linia kolejowa.


56.WA2


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59.Z lewej strony będzie MOP Gliniec z prawej MOP Sosna.


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Old November 22nd, 2010, 11:03 PM   #5420
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A2 highway Świecko-Nowy Tomyśl construction site. Section 5.1 from Interchange Świecko to Interchange Rzepin.

A2

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65.


66.Obrót w lewo.


67.Obrót w prawo.


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70.Podoba mi się ten fragment drogi.


71.W oddali WD3a


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75.WD3a


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80.Nowy Tomyśl ^ ^ ^


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