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Old May 12th, 2011, 12:21 AM   #6041
jeremiash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleetz View Post
Are there any plans for a northern east-west motorway (kind of like the A2 and the A4 but in the north) in Poland? It could go from the border crossing near Grodno via Augustow, Elk, Olsztyn all the way to the western border. That would be pretty cool! I think the AADT would be quite large, as it would be the main route for trucks from Russia, Belarus and most of Russia to the west. At the same time it would take pressure off the A2 and the Warsaw ring road. No?
apart from what toonczyk said, you also need to keep in mind that north eastern poland has many protected areas (natura2000 and other areas through which building is hard/forbidden) so although that route may seem logical for a motorway, it would most certainly be protested by loads of different circles. The battle for the bypass of Augustów lasted ages and was pretty hefty, so building such a motorway taking into consideration all ecological factors would take a long time to prepare and would most probably be very costly.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 12:41 AM   #6042
bleetz
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That's a shame, but thanks for the explanations.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 02:05 AM   #6043
Jakub Warszauer
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Everything I write below should be considered as my personal long-term forecast based on latest analisys and official state documents.

Current DK16 wil be gradually upgraded to GP-class standard.

Sooner (15 years) or later (25 years) a road in this corridor will be a modern 2x2 highway (no motorway or expressway) with limited access to serve as an east-west axis for the region.

And only for the region, because north-eastern Poland is an extraordinary area of protected zones of all kinds and contains lots main tourist attractions of the country (both natural and historical). Any type of road transit from Baltic states to Germany is absolutely unacceptable and will be diverted through Warsaw Metropolitan Area (Via Baltica) by all available means (high toll included).

Early analysis indicate, that main traffic flow at DK16 will not follow northern Poland towards S6 Gdańsk - Szczecin expressway. Instead it leads southwards via A1 or S5 to polish economic core (and Germany of course, via A2).

Example for consideration: final design of Olsztyn bypass showed 2x2 road with access only through junctions. Plus space in median and infrastructure ready for 2x3.

To see how difficult is to cross the Grate Lakes Land (pronounciated like "Wonder-land" without any hesitation by every Pole) please take a look at this site:
http://www.mragowo-orzysz.pl/#
It contains early designs of the road, done for first Environmental Impact Assessment. "S" letter looks straight comparing to those proposals.

I'm sorry for any mistakes. Time to bed. Goodnight everyone.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 10:55 AM   #6044
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speaking about the concepts of reviving, it would be a pitty not to mention a Wroclaw - Vienna Strecke 88! Currently Wroclaw - Klodzko section is highly congested road. It is a section very much asked for being upgraded. Are we going to live to see any works there?
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Old May 12th, 2011, 11:29 AM   #6045
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About the Northern connection:

What about upgrading the S10 from Szczecin to Bydgoszcz en then up north-east to Grudziadz and further on (by DK16)?
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Old May 12th, 2011, 12:33 PM   #6046
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Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
Every now and then somebody proposes to revive the concept of A6 ("Berlinka") motorway, but it's not going to happen. Traffic on E28 international route is nowhere near the amounts on E30 (A2 motorway). The part of "Berlinka" west of A1 is going to be built in the form of S6 expressway, although it is situated farther to the north than the proponents of A6 wanted (the reason is that this way it's going to service some large cities like Koszalin and Słupsk, while the proposed A6 corridor would serve only long range transit). The eastern part of this route is going to go through the southern bypass of Gdańsk (S7) and the S22 expressway (which was actually built on the remains of German-built part of "Berlinka"). The only reason to build a latitudinal motorway between, say, Grudziądz and Grodno, would be to create a secondary, Shengen-only corridor for E28. But most of transit already uses E30+E67, so there is no need for that.
E28 is probably the worst road I've ever driven on! It starts already in Germany, last 10-20km before the border has some very very bad concrete surface that shakes your car apart. It continues in Poland as A6 / S3 / S6 and its not much better. A lot of towns you have to drive through and the road surface is very bad, especially in the rain its terrible.

I think an upgrade of the E28 between Berlin and Gdansk to at least grade-seperated 2x2 all the way could give the an economic and touristic boost to the area.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 12:42 PM   #6047
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When did you drive this road? I travel this route quite often and I can assure you, that the majority of it have been renewed in the last 2-3 years - including new surface. It's still a simple 1x2 road, but the quality is quite good.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 01:44 PM   #6048
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http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/userfiles/a...pa_SDR2010.pdf

Look at these data.

Nobody has enough money to create roads only because it would see nice at a map.
I think between Olsztyn and Grodno (in Belarus) a 1x2 expressway would be enough for next years (except for a few section like Olsztyn bypass that needs 2x2).
And that is exactly what happens. Some sections of DK16 east of Olsztyn are now upgraded like to expressway standard.

--------------------------------------------------------------------



http://olsztyn.gazeta.pl/olsztyn/51,...00155.html?i=0

Last edited by bebe.2006; May 12th, 2011 at 05:46 PM.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 02:23 PM   #6049
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Class GP also seems to have little difference with expressway designs in other countries.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 04:48 PM   #6050
Jakub Warszauer
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Quote:
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Class GP also seems to have little difference with expressway designs in other countries.
GP-class is very capacious.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 05:03 PM   #6051
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Quote:
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E28 is probably the worst road I've ever driven on! It starts already in Germany, last 10-20km before the border has some very very bad concrete surface that shakes your car apart. It continues in Poland as A6 / S3 / S6 and its not much better. A lot of towns you have to drive through and the road surface is very bad, especially in the rain its terrible.

I think an upgrade of the E28 between Berlin and Gdansk to at least grade-seperated 2x2 all the way could give the an economic and touristic boost to the area.
Part of A6 has been through a pretty good overhaul in the last years, so the road surface should be alright up to about the Kijewo interchange, as for the DK6 (Szczecin-Gdansk) from what i know from the last time i drove the full length of that road (which was less than a year ago), although it is only a 1x2 road, the quality is mostly very good, seeing as it hasn't been long since it's last renovation. I say mostly because only a slight percentage of the length has deteriorated in quality, but still not significantly enough for it to be a major discomfort. The biggest problem with that road, and with this I completely agree, are the many cities/villages you have to drive through with a 50km/h limit. This causes the whole 350 km journey between Szczecin and Gdansk to take about 5.5-6 hours. There are only a few bypasses on that road, the Nowogard bypass (2x2) is being built, Słupsk bypass was completed not that long ago as a 1x2 road (for now).
But DK6 is going to become S6 as a 2x2 road on it's whole length, although it's not a "first priority" road to be built. The fragments of A6 not fulfilling motorway standards are being upgraded, or will be upgraded soon. The S6 between Szczecin and Słupsk will in about 50% follow the route of DK6, taking a detour to Kołobrzeg and then to Koszalin. From Słupsk it will most certainly go to Lębork, but from Lębork it should go south of the current DK6 and connect to about the middle of the Tricity bypass (that's the current plan, there are pretty advanced talks about this).
But as I said, the current AADT number show that what is currently there should be enough for now, there are many much worse of, more important, roads that must be built first. The construction of fragments of S6 (probably between Lębork and Gdynia) might start in the next 5/6 years, but i wouldn't count on it being completed for atleast 10 years.
Ofcourse as a person living in Gdynia, I would love it if they were to build it quickly, and your words about tourism and economic boost could have been my own
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Old May 12th, 2011, 09:07 PM   #6052
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Originally Posted by Dantiscum View Post
When did you drive this road? I travel this route quite often and I can assure you, that the majority of it have been renewed in the last 2-3 years - including new surface. It's still a simple 1x2 road, but the quality is quite good.
Last July! The concrete bits in Germany and near Szczecin were really really bad, they looked at least 30 years old. The rest of the road had a lot of tracks from trucks and during heavy rain, which we had it was nearly undrivable. It also runs through a lot of small and medium sized towns making it a very very slow drive. Berlin to Gdynia took us over 8 hours while its only 500 km
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Old May 13th, 2011, 01:43 AM   #6053
bleetz
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Originally Posted by bartusz View Post
About the Northern connection:

What about upgrading the S10 from Szczecin to Bydgoszcz en then up north-east to Grudziadz and further on (by DK16)?
That sounds good!
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Old May 13th, 2011, 10:00 PM   #6054
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The other thing is that there's no westbound motorway from Szczecin in Germany, so even if you were to go from Szczecin to, say, Bremen or Hamburg, you would still need to go all the way south to Berlin. So even if bartusz's suggested connection was built, transit traffic would still be going via Berlin!
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Old May 13th, 2011, 10:21 PM   #6055
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Yep, unfortunately A20 doesn't make much sense for through traffic. It serves Northern Germany really well, but does not play a significant role for international traffic. Although A20 is generally seen as an east - west route, it varies north - south by about 100 kilometers.
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Old May 13th, 2011, 10:57 PM   #6056
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In fact any connection north of Szczecin is out of question due to environmental reasons.

---------

Medium quality satellite image of whole Poland including various sections of A1, A2, A4, S3, S5 and S7 U/C:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/g....1135.250m.jpg
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Old May 16th, 2011, 01:17 PM   #6057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Yep, unfortunately A20 doesn't make much sense for through traffic. It serves Northern Germany really well, but does not play a significant role for international traffic. Although A20 is generally seen as an east - west route, it varies north - south by about 100 kilometers.
Just a view on the maps shows you could connect BAB11 from kreuz Uckermark to BAB 24 Dreieck Wittstock/Dosse.
Probably also not acceptable for the same reasons PLH states above
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Old May 16th, 2011, 05:21 PM   #6058
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Originally Posted by Des View Post
Berlin to Gdynia took us over 8 hours while its only 500 km
This is a good average for national roads, whether in Poland or Germany.
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Old May 17th, 2011, 12:13 PM   #6059
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Anyone knows what is the current status of never ecomplished project Wroclaw - Vienna Strecke 88! Currently Wroclaw - Klodzko section is a highly congested road. It is a section very much asked for being upgraded. Are we going to live to see any works there?
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Old May 17th, 2011, 05:02 PM   #6060
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Anyone knows what is the current status of never ecomplished project Wroclaw - Vienna Strecke 88! Currently Wroclaw - Klodzko section is a highly congested road. It is a section very much asked for being upgraded. Are we going to live to see any works there?
I don't know about any repair, but if you asking about motorway or expressway then definitely nothing is going to happens in any reasonable future.

There are some projects of A8 and A5 south from Wrocław, but those are out of date:



Those are probably Lower Silesia Voivodeship plans, not national strategy.
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