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Old June 15th, 2011, 10:25 PM   #6241
mcarling
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I doubt if something like that exists. Of course there are guidelines, usually including a phrase like the price weighs for 80 or 90% in judging the offers. But I don't think they MUST award it to the lowest bidder even if it is obviously ridiculous or unrealistic.
The relevant EU legislation is either Directive 2004/17 or Directive 2004/18. (Both deal with public procurement, but I'm not sure which applies to highways.) Anyway, they are fairly similar to each other and the basic principles are transparency, non-discrimination, and objective standards. Exactly which objective standards are left to the member states to decide. I seem to recall that some chose price alone, but I don't have the time to research (not to mention translate) the national legislation of all 27 member states implementing these Directives.

Obviously, reputation is not an objective criterion. Other than price, the only other criterion which I can think of at the moment which would probably meet the objectivity test would be a history of successfully completing a defined number of projects above a defined euro value.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 10:33 PM   #6242
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DK52

Is there a long-term plan for the DK52 to eventually be upgraded to an expressway from Kraków to Bielsko-Biała?
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Old June 15th, 2011, 10:33 PM   #6243
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I don't think the law needs to be changed. It's enough to be tough with the underbidders exactly as the Polish government is now. When potential underbidders see that the consequences are consistently as they are with Covec, then no one will want to underbid in Poland. Adding more laws every time a problem arises quickly leads to drowning in laws.
Law needs to be definitely changed.

1. Lowest and highest bids should be struck down and never taken into account (Demming himself wrote that if you base your projects on costs alone you end up with garbage every time).

2. Companies that did not fulfill their obligations should be fined and barred from operating in Poland for at least 5 years if not more.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 10:36 PM   #6244
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Is there a long-term plan for the DK52 to eventually be upgraded to an expressway from Kraków to Bielsko-Biała?
Class GP: Beskidzka Droga Integracyjna

Thread on the Polish sub forum: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=320436
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Old June 15th, 2011, 10:48 PM   #6245
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Law needs to be definitely changed.

1. Lowest and highest bids should be struck down and never taken into account (Demming himself wrote that if you base your projects on costs alone you end up with garbage every time).
Does anyone here even know exactly the Polish law on this? I only know (approximately) the constraints imposed on relevant Polish law by relevant EU law. For all I know, it may already be the case that Polish law requires the lowest bid to be thrown out, though that does not seem to have been the case at the time Covec were awarded the contract.

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2. Companies that did not fulfill their obligations should be fined and barred from operating in Poland for at least 5 years if not more.
The fine imposed on Covec is 741 million zlotys. Covec will never, ever be able to operate in Poland if they don't pay the fine.

It's bad that completion of the A2 will be delayed. However, Poland got a great deal out of it. Covec lost a tonne of money even before the fine.

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Thread on the Polish sub forum: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=320436
Thanks!
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Old June 15th, 2011, 11:05 PM   #6246
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Does anyone here even know exactly the Polish law on this? I only know (approximately) the constraints imposed on relevant Polish law by relevant EU law. For all I know, it may already be the case that Polish law requires the lowest bid to be thrown out, though that does not seem to have been the case at the time Covec were awarded the contract.
The answer to this question is here:
http://www.uzp.gov.pl/cmsws/page/?D;1391
Google translate will give you an idea about the subject, but in short:

The law allows to use criteria of price OR price together with other factors (quality, warranty, time). It would be illegal to throw out the lowest bid without proving it was "too low" (dumping). According to UZP (Public Procurement Office) it would be in violation of Article 55 of Directive 2004/18/CE:

Quote:
Article 55 - Abnormally low tenders
1. If, for a given contract, tenders appear to be abnormally low in relation to the goods, works or services, the contracting authority shall, before it may reject those tenders, request in writing details of the constituent elements of the tender which it considers relevant.

Those details may relate in particular to:

(a) the economics of the construction method, the manufacturing process or the services provided;

(b) the technical solutions chosen and/or any exceptionally favourable conditions available to the tenderer for the execution of the work, for the supply of the goods or services;

(c) the originality of the work, supplies or services proposed by the tenderer;

(d) compliance with the provisions relating to employment protection and working conditions in force at the place where the work, service or supply is to be performed;

(e) the possibility of the tenderer obtaining State aid.

2. The contracting authority shall verify those constituent elements by consulting the tenderer, taking account of the evidence supplied.

3. Where a contracting authority establishes that a tender is abnormally low because the tenderer has obtained State aid, the tender can be rejected on that ground alone only after consultation with the tenderer where the latter is unable to prove, within a sufficient time limit fixed by the contracting authority, that the aid in question was granted legally. Where the contracting authority rejects a tender in these circumstances, it shall inform the Commission of that fact.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 11:21 PM   #6247
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Thanks for looking that up!

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Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
It would be illegal to throw out the lowest bid without proving it was "too low" (dumping). According to UZP (Public Procurement Office) it would be in violation of Article 55 of Directive 2004/18/CE:
Throwing out the lowest bid without proving dumping might also be in violation of WTO law. In light of the constraints imposed by Directive 2004/18, it's not obvious how Polish law could be changed to reduce the likelihood of similar incidents in the future.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 01:27 AM   #6248
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Hello!

I have the freshest (today's) pictures from cycling tour from node to node Pawłowice Widawa and back, can someone interesting. This episode is complete, and probably soon will be ready for collection. The connector to Długołęka not drove, but he also seems to be "almost" ready.

At the beginning of the view from the viaduct over the Trzebnica toward Długołęka:


Przy skrzyżowaniu z drogą do Ramiszowa stała budka i wjazdu strzegły ręcznie podnoszone szlabany:


Ale ja pojechałem w odwrotnym kierunku - widok znad torów na sam węzęł Pawłowice:


Dojazd obwodnicy do węzła (od strony mostu):



Widok z węzła w drugą stronę, tzn. w kierunku na Oleśnicę (na przedłużeniu widać wychodzący już z ziemi wiadukt S8 nad drogą do Ramiszowa):


Po zjechaniu z wiaduktu droga w stronę Widawy i Kamieńskiego:


Na razie stoją znaki oznajmiające początek autostrady (odcinek z Oleśnicy ma być tylko S8):


Znana już tablica:


Paręset metrów dalej, jeszcze przed Widawą:


Odcinek nad Widawą i Kamieńskiego:


Za Kamieńskiego:


Wiadukt przed samym węzłem Widawa, jeśli się nie mylę - nad przyszłą S5 do Poznania:
...
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Old June 16th, 2011, 01:28 AM   #6249
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Sam wiadukt z ozdobami - widok od wewnątrz:


Przed zjazdami rozpoczyna się strefa 110 km/h:


Pas do zjazdu:



Dojazdy do nitki północnej:


Wjazd na tę nitkę (dwupasmowy; zjad był jednopasmowy):


Widok na dojazdy do ronda na ul. Żmigrodzkiej (ładnych paręset metrów!):


Od tego miejsca wracałem. Tu widok z pasem włączającym się w kierunku Pawłowic (cały czas strefa 110):


Widok na rodno na ul. Żmigrodzkiej (dojazd do AOW dochodzi z prawej strony, w głębi widać łuk wiaduktu OŚ):


Przed wiaduktem nad przyszłą S5 (?) 110 się kończy:


Odcinek przed ul. Kamieńskiego:


Mniej więcej znad Widawy:


No i dojazd do węzła Pawłowice:




Tu oznakowanie poziome się kończy:


Ale ogólnie widać, że do wykończenia tego odcinka zostały już ostatnie detale. Jeśli im zależy i się sprężą, wydaje się to kwestia kilku - kilkunastu dni.

NO WIĘC KIEDY ODDANIE?
...
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Old June 16th, 2011, 02:06 AM   #6250
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Difficult to say. Currently the only thing we know for sure is that none of them will be built before 2013. There are some talks about A1 between Tuszyn and Pyrzowice being built in PPP (second try...), but one way or another I'd say the earliest we can expect it to be ready is 2015. Bypass of Węgierska Górka (S69) and S7 Lubień-Rabka are rather far on the list of priorities, I would be surprised to see them U/C before 2018
I can understand that S69 and S7 Lubien-Rabka aren't priorities, but the last section of A1 must be a priority, so my next question what is the problem up there?
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Old June 16th, 2011, 02:33 AM   #6251
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I can understand that S69 and S7 Lubien-Rabka aren't priorities, but the last section of A1 must be a priority, so my next question what is the problem up there?
The problem is money. This section was supposed to be built by a private consortium (Autostrada Południe SA), but one year after the contract has been signed, they withdrew due to difficulties acquiring funding (financial crisis). Then it turned out even the construction plans they were supposed to prepare during this one year were of very poor quality. So GDDKiA had to start the whole process of gathering documentation (except for environmental documentation thankfully) from scratch. In the meanwhile, we had to slow down with the infrastructure investments to work on limiting the deficit and there had to be some really tough decisions made, which projects to delay. There is no point in assigning any money to A1 contract until the building permit is (almost) ready. So yeah, as a result, as of today A1 is to be built "after 2013". Also, even if there is a decision to go back to PPP for this section, it's going to take at least until 2015 for it to be built. Obviously that's not an ideal situation, but it's not that terrible either - DK1 is not that bad compared to many other roads, even though it goes straight through Częstochowa.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 07:03 AM   #6252
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@ Cancun
There is a reason behind that. As I remember price makes up of around 95% of winning bid. There is no much of other criterias taken into the consideration during selection time. So what to expect? we have and we will have that sort of situations in the future untill our law won't be changed the way that experience of competing companies counts, not only how cheap they can go.
Price is the biggest factor to decide the winner for the bid tender.

I do not want to blame the basic principle and system to prefer lowest bidder.

The project owner has to trust the bidder's quotation is reasonable and conscientious but unfortunately this chinese company does not know how to make the detailed breakdown to consolidate their bid price. They will bring many excuses like their own bid system does not include mobilization cost blah blah blah.

Their government usually gives the project winner in foreign market the honor title. So the covec project managers just thought their honor title first and then the government will support to fix such low bid flaws.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 08:52 AM   #6253
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There is no point in assigning any money to A1 contract until the building permit is (almost) ready.
Funny, in the Netherlands we do it the other way around, as experience in the 1960's and 1970's showed us many plans never came into fruition because there was no money for plans that already had record of decisions, building permits, etcetera.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 01:59 PM   #6254
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A2 Świecko - Nowy Tomyśl section 5.0 - 5.1

My tour on A2 Rzepin - Świecko. Concrete on section

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cdn.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 12:23 PM   #6255
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guys, get a load of that:
http://investmap.pl/wiadomosci/link,...-s8,28784.html
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Old June 17th, 2011, 10:47 PM   #6256
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Western bypass of Mragowo (small town in lake district)

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Old June 17th, 2011, 10:59 PM   #6257
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Fine "medium" GP-class.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 11:05 PM   #6258
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It looks quite good, good example of an at-grade 2+1 road. We don't have such roads in the Netherlands.

I assume traffic volumes are not high enough to warrant grade-separation on this bypass.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 12:21 AM   #6259
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Fine for 90% of the year. Remaining 10% are summer weekends. The bypass covers the less important DK59 corridor for city of Mrągowo. The more imporant one, in DK16 corridor will take much more time and money.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 12:50 AM   #6260
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Check out 7:05 to 7:15!! UFO? Hehehehe
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