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Old May 24th, 2012, 03:38 PM   #8141
ChrisZwolle
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Poland has currently 1200 kilometers of motorways under construction. I doubt if there were many times in European history when that has happened before...
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Old May 24th, 2012, 03:57 PM   #8142
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Are there any decent photos of the new signage leading up to the Konotopa interchange? So far I've only seen videos.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #8143
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Strange as it may seem, no.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 04:11 PM   #8144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
agree. no needs for pointless complains.
My main point was that there is way too much noise barriers. This has to change in a future because it's sick.

Anyway you guys have to admit that we are definitely behind countries from region especially, Hungary.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 04:28 PM   #8145
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once again. check post #8142
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Old May 24th, 2012, 05:15 PM   #8146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Poland has currently 1200 kilometers of motorways under construction. I doubt if there were many times in European history when that has happened before...
Bedankt Chris! inderdaad
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Old May 24th, 2012, 06:14 PM   #8147
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ON 20 MAY A SIX-MONTH PERIOD OF TOLL FREE USE OF A 106 KM SECTION OF A2 ŚWIECKO – NOWY TOMYŚL COMES TO AN END

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As of 20 May, 22.00 hours, all drivers using A2 Motorway from Świecko to Nowy Tomyśl will pay tolls at the rates determined by the Minister of Transport.
Car drivers and bikers will pay PLN 17.00 for the entire section...
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Old May 24th, 2012, 06:18 PM   #8148
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Charging tolls for motorcyclists is nuts. They do not cause any wear on the roads and do not significantly contribute to congestion. Charging motorcyclists the same toll as cars is completely crazy.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 06:19 PM   #8149
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Tolls are justified for all road users, even though motorcyclists do not cause any significant wear and tear (the exact same can be said of passenger cars), they use the strip of concrete that has been paid for.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 07:28 PM   #8150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Tolls are justified for all road users, even though motorcyclists do not cause any significant wear and tear (the exact same can be said of passenger cars), they use the strip of concrete that has been paid for.
The relevant economic question is whether or not the good (the strip of concrete) is rivalrous i.e. does one person using it prevent another person from using it. I can't remember the last time a motorcyclist used the road in a way that kept me from using it the way I wanted, but cars and trucks do so every day. Motorcyclists nearly always manage to stay out of the way of other road users. And, no, I'm not a motorcyclist.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 07:42 PM   #8151
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The strip of concrete depreciates whether you use it or not as a motorcyclist.

The strip of concrete costs resources that could have been used elswhere. The only reason for using them for the concrete is your demand as a motorcyclist. The logical conclusing is, that your profit from using it, must be even or bigger as the costs of making it.

Since you profit from it, it is perfectly fine that you also pay for it. If you did not pay you wouldnt have it and you would not profit. Thus any costs lower than your profit are reasonable.


The practical point you may reffer to, is when the motorcycle toll is the same as of a 4 wheel vehicle... that indeed makes little sence.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 08:14 PM   #8152
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Quote:
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The only reason for using them for the concrete is your demand as a motorcyclist.
Here is the flaw in your logic. Using the current example of the A2, the A2 would have been built anyway even if there were no demand at all from motorcyclists. So, the idea that the money was used to build the A2 only because of demand from motorcyclists doesn't stand.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 08:23 PM   #8153
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??

So, they have built the A2 even if there was no demand to use it? Why did they build it then?

Motorcyclist was just an example... There is no flaw in my logic.

Whenever the motorcyclist uses it, he is part of the demand. If he did not want to use it, he would simply not use it. Thus there is nothing wrong with charging him money whenever he uses it. When you use something you do it becuase if you did not you would be worse off.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 08:28 PM   #8154
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???

Maybe you meant "motorist" rather than "motorcyclist" in your sentence which I quoted above?
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Old May 24th, 2012, 08:35 PM   #8155
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Ok. Let's ban motorcycles from tolled roads. That way they won't pay tolls.

What do you say to that?
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Old May 24th, 2012, 08:38 PM   #8156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
???

Maybe you meant "motorist" rather than "motorcyclist" in your sentence which I quoted above?
I was answering to someone who talked about motorcyclist, thus I used motorcyclist to explain why even a motorcyclist should be paying.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #8157
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To the extent that a motorcyclist's use of the road is rivalrous, i.e. that it prevents someone else from using the road, then an argument can be made that a motorcyclist should have to pay. However, in my experience, a motorcyclist's use of the road is generally non-rivalrous.

The demand for motorways would be essentially the same even if there were no motorcyclists.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 09:02 PM   #8158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
The relevant economic question...
...is the depreciation of the highway. It has to be repaired whether you drive or not, besides the wear. Such things as winter cracks are only partially due to traffic. So if there's a client, the client will be charged.

But I agree that charging the same price for motorcycle is insane.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 09:05 PM   #8159
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How big is the problem anyway? For most motorcyclists long-distance motorways are pretty boring and otherwise they generally make up less than 0.5% of the traffic.

If you're talking about a toll differentiated by wear and tear, trucks should pay dozens of times more than passenger cars. The axle load of a truck is generally 15 - 20 times higher than a passenger car. I've read one heavy truck causes the same wear and tear as 100.000 passenger cars.
Because pavement and structures are rated for heavy trucks, passenger cars generally cause no measurable wear and tear at all.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 09:14 PM   #8160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
The demand for motorways would be essentially the same even if there were no motorcyclists.
Let's say I'm an average car-user of the tolled road.
I use only a small fraction of the surface, don't I? So my way of using the road is non-rivalrous. There is no way I've prevented anyone from using the road. Why should I pay for the road?

The demand for motorways would be essentially the same even if I wasn't using them. Logical conclusion - according to @mcarling - I shouldn't pay for the road.


And, by the way, every time I see a motorbike on a plain highway outside built-up area, they use the middle of the lane. Their occupancy of the road is essentialy the same as for a passenger car. It is stupidly unsafe to drive a motorbike any other way on highways & motorways. How can you say it's not a "rivalrous use" then?
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