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Old June 19th, 2012, 06:25 PM   #8561
ChrisZwolle
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Well, pre-1990, I don't know. But pre-2006 seems more appropriate. A2 arrived near Łódź in 2006.

I'm not interested in a heated city vs city debate, I'm just wondering why Łódź seemed left-out compared to most other large cities, especially considering Łódź was the second largest city in Poland for a while.

Maybe Łódź just happens to be very large without much strategic / logistic importance. Sometimes that happens, the Netherlands has cities like that as well (Enschede, Tilburg).
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Old June 19th, 2012, 06:33 PM   #8562
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It has strategic importance, because it is situated in the middle of the country Well, after 1990 most factories ( Łódź was a working-class city ) were closed and the city nearly died out ( of course figuratively speaking ) Now we can see the resurrection of the city and A2, A1, S8 and S14 are of pivotal importance in this process.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 12:35 AM   #8563
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Always found Lodz a bit of a poor mans city.

I have taken the Eurolines coach 3 or 4 times when I was small with my mother travelling to Warsaw, and every time we stopped in Lodz I thought it was a bit rubbish ( no offence, I must admit I am a bit of a Warsaw fanboy with both my parents who lived there before I was born ), the buildings looked more rubbish (barely any high rises, but I recognized The Palac Kultury miles of every time we approached Warsaw), the roads had more holes in them, etc...
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Old June 20th, 2012, 12:46 AM   #8564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Maybe Łódź just happens to be very large without much strategic / logistic importance.
Bingo.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 08:26 AM   #8565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I was wondering why the city of Łódź was left out in highway construction for a long time. While most larger Polish cities either had motorways or somewhat developed arterial road networks, Łódź had almost nothing for a long time, it has only one or two grade-separated interchanges. With Łódź being Poland's second largest city for some time, this surprised me.

Łódź was also not on a major road junction, DK1/DK2 was further north and DK1/DK8 further south, leaving Łódź with some less important national roads. Even A2 nowadays hardly serves Łódź itself.

So what's up with Łódź?
Łódź wasn't so much disadvantaged when comparing to other Polish cities at the time. Of course Warsaw is an exception because of its status. Łódź together with other big cities like Wrocław, Kraków, Poznań or Gdańsk got its slice. Every big city had some degree of investment. Łódź already had some kind of an internal ring road. Also a relatively quick access via ''Gierkówka'' to both Warsaw and Upper Silesian Industrial Region. Entire Poland was lagging behind the level of transport investment in Warsaw and Upper Silesia.
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Old June 21st, 2012, 01:03 AM   #8566
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S12/S17 Kurów-Lublin-Piaski 68 kilometres:

From junction "Sielce" to junction "Bogucin":

Junction "Bogucin" - Junction "Dąbrowica":



Lublin bypass S12/S17/S19:

From junction "Dąbrowica" to junction "Lubartów":


From junction "Lubartów" to junction "Witosa":

Terrain is picturesque



Junction "Witosa" - junction "Piaski":



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Last edited by Strzala; June 21st, 2012 at 01:17 AM.
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Old June 21st, 2012, 04:27 PM   #8567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beck's View Post
We are supposed to construct aproximately 1000 km. motorways/expresways in 2014-2020, so it is around 150 km. per year
That is very optimistic considering current budget constraints in Poland as well as in the EU as a whole. There are already talks about cutting subsidies to roads in the next EU budget.
I do admire optimism and positive approach of some of you guys but when I read what is happening on the A4 construction I quickly come back to my pessimism (or maybe just reality). Not a single stretch between Krakow and the UA border will be finished on time, some of them will be more than a year late (hopefully not much more).
We have kicked out contractors, we have bankrupt contractors, finally we have simply incompetent and incapable contractors.
How can you call it efficient and professional road building??
Pretty much the same is happening on A1 and S5 around Rawicz.
Maybe we should have a bit more realistic projects. What is the point of hyping-up expectations which we clearly can't fulfil.
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Old June 22nd, 2012, 12:47 PM   #8568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
That is very optimistic considering current budget constraints in Poland as well as in the EU as a whole. There are already talks about cutting subsidies to roads in the next EU budget.
I do admire optimism and positive approach of some of you guys but when I read what is happening on the A4 construction I quickly come back to my pessimism (or maybe just reality). Not a single stretch between Krakow and the UA border will be finished on time, some of them will be more than a year late (hopefully not much more).
We have kicked out contractors, we have bankrupt contractors, finally we have simply incompetent and incapable contractors.
How can you call it efficient and professional road building??
Pretty much the same is happening on A1 and S5 around Rawicz.
Maybe we should have a bit more realistic projects. What is the point of hyping-up expectations which we clearly can't fulfil.
There are two reasons for bankrupcy of the companies. The first one is a sharp braking in conctruction(cause it was the huge booming before) and the second one is that a lot of the companies underestimated the costs, so that's why they are in trouble. As far as the nuber of motorways supposed to be counstructed is concerned, theese 1000 km. were determined base on expected smaller Union budget in 2014-2020 and planned smaller expenses for road infrastructure, because we are told to spend more for the rail.
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Old June 22nd, 2012, 01:40 PM   #8569
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So far, despite the slight austerity evident in national budgets, the EU budget has continued to explode.
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Old June 22nd, 2012, 04:13 PM   #8570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beck's View Post
I am on mind all S7 from Cracow to Gdańsk(apart from the bypass of Kielce-underconstructed now and south bypass of Gdańsk-exist now), S8 from Warsaw to Białystok, S17 from Warsaw to Lublin, S5 from Wrocław to Poznań and A1 from Pyrzowice to Piotrków. You can also find some more information here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=184
is anything confirmed ? I mean secured budget for above investments.

if not we can also say we are going to have 10.000 km of new motorways till 2020, instead 1000 km new motorways. this is just speculation, nothing more
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Old June 22nd, 2012, 09:43 PM   #8571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
So far, despite the slight austerity evident in national budgets, the EU budget has continued to explode.
Where did you hear that? Could you elaborate?
Because so far I can't see any EU budget explosion coming. Especially when northern countries are fed up with paying into the EU budget.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Beck's View Post
There are two reasons for bankrupcy of the companies. The first one is a sharp braking in conctruction(cause it was the huge booming before) and the second one is that a lot of the companies underestimated the costs, so that's why they are in trouble.
Regardless what are the reasons, bankruptcies cause long delays and complications, hardly a reason to call Polish road building a "success story".
Even when companies don't go bankrupt there are often huge delays, sometimes quality issues too.

Don't take me wrong, I'm glad because of the progress we did in the last few years. But it doesn't mean we are suddenly masters of road building. We are not. Our companies are learning the trade and it seems they often have problems with the large scale projects. Symptoms of that are problems with the multitude of tiny subcontractors, often two man companies. There are problems with delayed payments there is slow decision making on the road authority side and bad communication between the main contractors, subcontractors, supervising firms and road authority. Minor changes have to be approved on so many levels that it often slow works for weeks.
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Old June 22nd, 2012, 10:01 PM   #8572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Where did you hear that? Could you elaborate?
Because so far I can't see any EU budget explosion coming. Especially when northern countries are fed up with paying into the EU budget.
EU Budget (in billions of euro), payments, commitments:
2010: 112.9 141.5
2011: 126.5 141.9
2012: 129.1 147.2
2013: 137.9 150.9 (draft)
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 02:32 AM   #8573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
EU Budget (in billions of euro), payments, commitments:
2010: 112.9 141.5
2011: 126.5 141.9
2012: 129.1 147.2
2013: 137.9 150.9 (draft)
I thought we were talking about 2014-2020 period. There will be less money for roads unless miracle happens.
Besides, sorry to be a pain, source??
What payments? To whom?
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 02:38 AM   #8574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
I thought we were talking about 2014-2020 period. There will be less money for roads unless miracle happens.
Besides, sorry to be a pain, source??
What payments? To whom?
All the numbers are from the European Commission website. I'll be very surprised if the EU spends less on road construction during 2014-2020 than during 2007-2013. There is simply no evidence of any sort of budgetary discipline at the EU.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 01:32 PM   #8575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
All the numbers are from the European Commission website. I'll be very surprised if the EU spends less on road construction during 2014-2020 than during 2007-2013. There is simply no evidence of any sort of budgetary discipline at the EU.
Well, as long as new budget is not approved everything might change. So far countries who pay more into budget than get out of it (Germany, UK, Netherland and few others) are pushing for smaller budget. Some other "old EU" countries (France, Spain) would like to see more of the infrastructure money going to them not only into "new EU" countries.
I will be really surprised if Poland gets anything close to what we got for roads in the last budget. There also will be rebalancing towards the railways.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 01:44 PM   #8576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Well, as long as new budget is not approved everything might change.
That's always possible in theory but, in practice, we've never seen a declining EU budget.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
So far countries who pay more into budget than get out of it (Germany, UK, Netherland and few others) are pushing for smaller budget.
Yes, but so far without any success.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Some other "old EU" countries (France, Spain) would like to see more of the infrastructure money going to them not only into "new EU" countries.
Not much chance for that to happen because a coalition of "northern" countries which would like to impose budgetary discipline and "new" countries that want the money are allied in opposition to France on this question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
I will be really surprised if Poland gets anything close to what we got for roads in the last budget.
Poland will certainly get a smaller share of an almost certainly increased road budget. Poland's share will be smaller because Bulgaria and Romania will be getting more, plus Croatia and the balkan states will be getting a cut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
There also will be rebalancing towards the railways.
Maybe, but don't expect such a "rebalancing" to be very dramatic. It will more likely be tinkering at the margins.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 09:52 PM   #8577
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S8 near Sieradz and Rzgów:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaczorm View Post
Dobra, lecimy na pełnej.

S8 okolice węzła Sieradz Południe:

[IMG]http://i50.************/2m0hea.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i49.************/1o6pn4.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i45.************/5ext6s.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i45.************/35ciwkk.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i50.************/1gt5iu.jpg[/IMG]

S8 węzeł Rzgów:

[IMG]http://i49.************/dr7bbb.jpg[/IMG]
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 10:10 PM   #8578
geogregor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
That's always possible in theory but, in practice, we've never seen a declining EU budget.


Yes, but so far without any success.


Not much chance for that to happen because a coalition of "northern" countries which would like to impose budgetary discipline and "new" countries that want the money are allied in opposition to France on this question.


Poland will certainly get a smaller share of an almost certainly increased road budget. Poland's share will be smaller because Bulgaria and Romania will be getting more, plus Croatia and the balkan states will be getting a cut.


Maybe, but don't expect such a "rebalancing" to be very dramatic. It will more likely be tinkering at the margins.
I honestly hope you are right.
But wouldn't bet my money on such outcome.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 02:39 PM   #8579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
i'm very impressed by the progress Poland has made in building a highway infrastructure. Drove on a number of roads last year and was very impressed by quality of construction, design and maintenance, best of all Polish officials are building roadway infrastructure within their financial means, not bankrupting the country just to impress the Germans or someone else. I saw some potholes that were patched and maybe a few that needed patching, but I could show you many roads in Canada that are badly potholed. We have no one to impress or compete with but ourselves, we know what needs doing and we know what our priorities are and what we can afford. If people steal, well that's an old tradition rooted in Communist era frustration, poverty and injustice that is dying out. My cousins stole bricks for their house because they coudln't buy any to finish their house for years. I'm looking forward to seeing the entire A4 and A1 Gdansk to Lodz completed this year. It would be resally good if the link to Czech on the A1 is done soon too, I drive into Czech from Krakow a fair bit.
Well, you have to consider, that not Poland is financing the constructions of highways in Poland out of its own tax-payer budget, but the EU provides the funding. So EU contributers like Germany or Norway finance the construction of the Polish highway and road system. So for instance the A2 from the German border to Nowy Tomyśl which cost 6 billion Zloty was financied by 62,5 % from the EIB (European Investment Bank = EU), 25,5 by private banks and 12 % by shareholders of the AWSA (autostrada wielkopolska company). For the construction of the A2 the branch AWSA II was founded, which has - besides others - also the German construction company Strabag and the KWM Investment Bank as owners. And exactly the German Strabag AG was the General builder of the highway, thats why the A2 looks like all the other highways the Strabag built in Germany in the last years.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 02:46 PM   #8580
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Only that Norway is not EU member
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