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Old July 15th, 2012, 02:07 PM   #8661
Janek0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
A new argument why vignettes are better than toll booths!
Why? They could do the same if they mistakenly enter toll road without vignette.
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Old July 15th, 2012, 02:34 PM   #8662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janek0 View Post
Why? They could do the same if they mistakenly enter toll road without vignette.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but I understood that the speculation on the Polish language forum is that these people are driving on the wrong side to deliberately evade the toll booths. Someone wanting to drive on a motorway without paying for a vignette will have no incentive to drive on the wrong side.
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Old July 15th, 2012, 03:30 PM   #8663
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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Perhaps I misunderstood, but I understood that the speculation on the Polish language forum is that these people are driving on the wrong side to deliberately evade the toll booths.
I think it is possible only on sections with partial interchanges which does not occur in this case. I don't see possibility to take any section without toll by driving wrong side - you would only go back to the interchange where you could exit properly.

Only the upper apply to this section.

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Old July 15th, 2012, 09:00 PM   #8664
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Originally Posted by Luki_SL View Post
I would rather say it`s an argument for tougher penalties for drivers. Their behavior can lead to disaster in land traffic.
The more important is to penalize every offender almost automatically. The level of penalty is less important.
If they risk their life to save, let say, 10-15zl they would never do it if they knew they would automatically get ticket, even if it was only 500zl.
You could argue that for some really rich people 500zl ticket is nothing, but if they had to pay it every day I can guarantee they would change behavior.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 02:46 PM   #8665
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I think the better way is just to inform drivers about toll section of road BEFORE entering toll section.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 03:01 PM   #8666
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They are informed. It was always clear to me which sections are tolled.

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Old July 16th, 2012, 03:05 PM   #8667
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It's clear as long as you know what Płatna (or Péage for that matter) means. Maybe a universal toll symbol would be an idea. The most used symbols currently in some countries are too similar to the customs symbol (white sign with red outline and black horizontal marking). I like the coin sign of Lithuania.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 03:32 PM   #8668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
The more important is to penalize every offender almost automatically. The level of penalty is less important.
If they risk their life to save, let say, 10-15zl they would never do it if they knew they would automatically get ticket, even if it was only 500zl.

200€ is "only"*)? Such high penalties only piss off rather than discourage.

I like the German system due to the fact that for lowest misdemeanors one gets a small ticket, let's say 20€. It will be remembered, but it doesn't make one hate the system and "get a revenge" by ignoring the rules. Germans seem to have studied well the psychology of driving.


*) purchasing-power exchange reate.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 03:40 PM   #8669
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S14 Lodz Western Bypass now open (10km) -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lknDM...layer_embedded
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Old July 16th, 2012, 03:50 PM   #8670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
They are informed. It was always clear to me which sections are tolled.

Not always it's clear, because we have some free sections with such sign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's clear as long as you know what Płatna (or Péage for that matter) means. Maybe a universal toll symbol would be an idea.
We also have this on borders:


Last edited by Janek0; July 16th, 2012 at 03:57 PM.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 05:45 PM   #8671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LMB View Post
200€ is "only"*)? Such high penalties only piss off rather than discourage.

I like the German system due to the fact that for lowest misdemeanors one gets a small ticket, let's say 20€. It will be remembered, but it doesn't make one hate the system and "get a revenge" by ignoring the rules. Germans seem to have studied well the psychology of driving.


*) purchasing-power exchange reate.
500PLN is only 120EUR.

20EUR it might be good for parking in the wrong place or sounding horn unnecessarily but not for dangerous road behaviour.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 06:17 PM   #8672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janek0 View Post
We also have this on borders:

Can You describe this sign, it is difficult to understand for my fair-haired head...
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Old July 16th, 2012, 06:47 PM   #8673
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Every motorway and express way and route nr. 49 are toll roads for:
cars towing a trailer above 3.5 tons
trucks above 3.5 tons
buses
All of that is paid by via toll system.
And all motorways are toll roads for cars bikes trucks and buses.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 06:50 PM   #8674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawelo81 View Post
Every motorway and express way and route nr. 49 are toll roads
Funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnette View Post
Can You describe this sign, it is difficult to understand for my fair-haired head...
- toll for all vehicles (currently applies only to motorways)

- toll only for vehicles above 3,5 t and buses (applies to motorways, expressways and national roads)
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Old July 16th, 2012, 07:01 PM   #8675
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Signs like that are useless due to the overload of information, and information is given when you don't need it. I bet virtually no motorist can remember the exact contents of the sign after one minute.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 07:06 PM   #8676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Signs like that are useless due to the overload of information, and information is given when you don't need it. I bet virtually no motorist can remember the exact contents of the sign after one minute.
Exactly, it is total waste of metal or whatever material they are made of.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 09:21 PM   #8677
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People seen in the video posted were Polish, they most definitely understood what the sign said. And I bet they knew which sections was tolled, but simply missed the exit (happens often). The problem is that they preferred not to pay, but instead risk their and other drivers' life. That's stupid and irresponsible and I don't think any signs will change it. Only penalties + education. But that was already mentioned.

Developing a universal sign meaning "toll" would be great, but then again, if you travel to a foreign country where you drive on the motorways, a thinking person checks whichs sections are tolled and at least tries to get to know local road-sign system, because they do differ between countries and it's good to know how it works in the place you're going to.

But for people in the video it's useless. They don't care, no matter how clearly you tell them that the road is tolled. If they miss the exit, they'll turn around and go back. That's what idiots do. Only unavoidable fines would teach them, imho.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 09:58 PM   #8678
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
But for people in the video it's useless. They don't care, no matter how clearly you tell them that the road is tolled. If they miss the exit, they'll turn around and go back.
Thanks for this explanation. I finally understand the speculation about why these idiots are driving the wrong way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
That's what idiots do. Only unavoidable fines would teach them, imho.
Switching to vignettes would solve this particular problem, but there would still be idiots driving.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 11:35 PM   #8679
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
The more important is to penalize every offender almost automatically. The level of penalty is less important.
If they risk their life to save, let say, 10-15zl they would never do it if they knew they would automatically get ticket, even if it was only 500zl.
You could argue that for some really rich people 500zl ticket is nothing, but if they had to pay it every day I can guarantee they would change behavior.
For this you need number plate recognition cameras and national registration plat database, like the one in the UK. Ticket sent to registered keeper's address automatically.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 03:59 PM   #8680
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Originally Posted by woyteck View Post
For this you need number plate recognition cameras and national registration plat database, like the one in the UK. Ticket sent to registered keeper's address automatically.
I know, and it seems like obvious solution.
But not in Poland, I'm not even sure if they finished primary database of cars and drivers. There were dozen of separate tenders, cancelled orders, delays etc.
Huge amounts of money were already spent.
Does anyone knows if the famous CEPiK is already operational?

Last edited by geogregor; July 18th, 2012 at 01:57 AM.
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