daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 16th, 2012, 12:14 AM   #9201
toonczyk
autostradożerca
 
toonczyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 5,786

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Was it done from the state budget or via bonds or loans?
Mostly bonds (issued by a special national road fund called KFD), some loans from EIB, the rest was covered by the state budget and collected tolls. EU is refunding finished projects, for example in October we got back 1,9bln PLN. So far reimbursements for 2007-2013 perspective exceeded 25 bln PLN. Altogether GDDKiA should get reimbursed for ~10,4 bln EUR. This money is used to redeem KFD bonds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris80678 View Post
I look forward to seeing when we have openings dates for these roads. From the look of the photos on the website of the companies constructing the A4 between Szarów and Tarnów I am very doubtful about it opening to traffic before the end of this year
I employ a "wait and see" tactic, we've seen some miracles this year (on A2 and A1), so I'd be careful judging what's possible and what isn't. I guess it all depends on the weather now.
__________________
████████████████████
toonczyk no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 16th, 2012, 12:44 AM   #9202
mr.cool
Registered User
 
mr.cool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 440
Likes (Received): 824

Well I don't know how people couldn't manage to find this but it only took me 2 minutes!

http://www.wbj.pl/article-61009-8364...t.html?typ=pam

It's not official but I think it's quite likely to say Poland will receive around 74 billion euros for 2014-2020, how much did Poland receive in the last years. Was it around 80 billion I think? If this is true are all roads likely to be built from what people have been suggesting?
mr.cool no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 12:56 AM   #9203
toonczyk
autostradożerca
 
toonczyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 5,786

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.cool View Post
It's not official but I think it's quite likely to say Poland will receive around 74 billion euros for 2014-2020
It's just one of many proposals on the table, the negotiations will take weeks, if not months, so I wouldn't get used to any numbers floating around. We're hoping for something like 80 billion EUR, but you have to remember only part of that sum will be used for infrastructure. And only part of the sum for infrastructure will be used on roads. And only part of the sum for roads will be used on national roads (A/S). So while Poland will most likely hugely benefit from the next EU budget, only a fraction of those funds will be used on motorways and expressways.
__________________
████████████████████
toonczyk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 10:50 AM   #9204
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,569
Likes (Received): 19357

S17 Lublin - Piaski

According to these photos, at least a 7 - 8 kilometer section of S17 is already opened to traffic.

http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/a/8756/b...bwodnica-piask

When did they open this? I know it's the reconstruction of an existing road, so it's hard to indicate when it opened exactly, especially if stuff like interchanges aren't completed yet...
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 01:01 PM   #9205
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2154

Quote:
Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
Mostly bonds (issued by a special national road fund called KFD), some loans from EIB, the rest was covered by the state budget and collected tolls. EU is refunding finished projects, for example in October we got back 1,9bln PLN. So far reimbursements for 2007-2013 perspective exceeded 25 bln PLN. Altogether GDDKiA should get reimbursed for ~10,4 bln EUR. This money is used to redeem KFD bonds.
TY. It seems to be so much better managed in PL than in CZ.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 03:09 PM   #9206
Janek0
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,291
Likes (Received): 449

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luki_SL View Post
I think A1 become toll road when Toruń-Kowal section will be finished.
You mean tolls for light vehicles, viaTOLL for Kotliska-Stryków section is already scheduled to start on 12th January 2013.
Janek0 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 03:33 PM   #9207
mcarling
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,605
Likes (Received): 491

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
It seems to be so much better managed in PL than in CZ.
Poland is fortunate to have one of the least badly run governments in the EU now. Highway development, while far from perfect in Poland, is a good example of how much worse government is managed elsewhere. If this can continue through the 2014-2020 EU budget cycle, the Polish road network will be in good shape.
mcarling no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2012, 12:27 AM   #9208
michael_siberia
Trzecie pokolenie akowców
 
michael_siberia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wungiel
Posts: 30,315
Likes (Received): 25697

@ Chris
Speed on this section is still limited to 50 km/h.

Quote:
how much did Poland receive in the last years
Poland will receive € 67 billion in years 2007-13 in total.
michael_siberia no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2012, 01:19 AM   #9209
Strzala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Wyślij sobie pocztowkę stamtąd
Posts: 11,048
Likes (Received): 8884

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
According to these photos, at least a 7 - 8 kilometer section of S17 is already opened to traffic.

http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/a/8756/b...bwodnica-piask

When did they open this? I know it's the reconstruction of an existing road, so it's hard to indicate when it opened exactly, especially if stuff like interchanges aren't completed yet...
All lanes were opened to traffic at the beginning of november:




But the road it's still not ended for official opening, as You can see on the film they have to install sreens, crash barriers etc.

Official opening of this section is planed on half of december.
__________________
Czarne dziury się podają za polarne zorze.
Strzala no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2012, 09:04 PM   #9210
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,569
Likes (Received): 19357

What are the reasons for the numerous delays in recent Polish road projects? Were they all contractors who went bankrupt?

The way I see it, some deadlines were too ambitious. While constructing a new motorway in 2 - 2.5 years is not impossible, it requires more funding (more expensive working shifts).

Especially projects like A4 in eastern Poland, S2 Warszawa, S79 Warszawa, A1 south of Torun and the S69 south of Bielsko-Biala were delayed substantially. Construction time of A4 rose from 2 to almost 4 years at some segments.

On the other hand, other large projects appear to be going according to schedule, like S3, S8 and S17.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2012, 09:17 PM   #9211
toonczyk
autostradożerca
 
toonczyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 5,786

Vast majority of delays are related to "external" problems - discovering unknown infrastructure underground (cables, pipes), difficulties with land acquisition (residents protesting), unexpected levels of groundwater (for example in some places around Warsaw those have risen by almost a meter within last 2 years) etc. Obviously sometimes delays are caused by contractors not engaging enough people and equipment, but usually they have pretty good excuses - one bridge that's on a critical path for the whole road is delayed, so they don't have to work as fast on the rest of the contract.
__________________
████████████████████
toonczyk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2012, 10:54 PM   #9212
rakcancer
Registered User
 
rakcancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: XYZ
Posts: 1,198
Likes (Received): 1170

The whole tender system in Poland is directed towards one target: to pay as little money as possible. Practically the only criteria (over %90) deciding who is a winner is a price. Not really matters how much experienced or how big is a company winning a bid. Most spectacular example of that was Covec - Chinese company responsible for not finishing some of the sections of A2 between Lodz and Warsaw. There is a plenty of more samples of smaller scale. Now we have the same problem with railway projects. Already couple of big projects has been stopped because of the bankruptcy of companies in charge of projects. I think it is a time to review the whole tender system and put less importance on the price only and put ahead experience and the size of companies too.
rakcancer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2012, 11:17 PM   #9213
ufonut
Atlantyda
 
ufonut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,015
Likes (Received): 1732

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What are the reasons for the numerous delays in recent Polish road projects? Were they all contractors who went bankrupt?

The way I see it, some deadlines were too ambitious. While constructing a new motorway in 2 - 2.5 years is not impossible, it requires more funding (more expensive working shifts).

Especially projects like A4 in eastern Poland, S2 Warszawa, S79 Warszawa, A1 south of Torun and the S69 south of Bielsko-Biala were delayed substantially. Construction time of A4 rose from 2 to almost 4 years at some segments.

On the other hand, other large projects appear to be going according to schedule, like S3, S8 and S17.
2-2.5 years is possible in Poland, it has been done - usually 2,3 or even 4 shifts are employed so work can continue 24/7. It's not uncommon to see people in Poland building highways at 2 AM on Sunday during a holiday

One must consider several factors (beside the ones mentioned by toonczyk):

1. Oftentimes work (especially preparatory) can only be performed during certain months of a year - there are many environmental constraints (bird nesting, animal migration, mammals, plants etc) that essentially prevent crews from working.

2. Large scale archeological digs that happen all along major road investments. When interesting things get found sometimes these digs are expanded to cover more ground or go deeper to penetrate further in the soil. It takes time and in such instances even archeologists themselves cant put an end date on their digs.

3. Just like archeologists bomb squads are tasked with clearing land of unexploded bombs or some other ordinances. That's usually done in areas known to have been places of conflict in the past.

4. Winter season.
__________________
Global Trekker
ufonut no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2012, 11:36 PM   #9214
toonczyk
autostradożerca
 
toonczyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 5,786

Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
The whole tender system in Poland is directed towards one target: to pay as little money as possible. Practically the only criteria (over %90) deciding who is a winner is a price.
What other criteria would you have them use? We're dealing with public money here, so I'm glad GDDKiA is doing everything in their power to spend as little money as possible. That doesn't mean quality has to suffer, because even if the cheapest offer wins, the contractors are still required to meet the quality level they agreed upon. This is why GDDKiA invested in laboratories and specialists that visit all constructions sites and test quality all the time. There have been some quality issues on roads built by GDDKiA in recent years, but all of them have been detected during construction and had to be fixed "for free" by the contractors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
Not really matters how much experienced or how big is a company winning a bid. Most spectacular example of that was Covec - Chinese company responsible for not finishing some of the sections of A2 between Lodz and Warsaw.
Any company (or consortium) participating in GDDKiA's tenders has to prove they have sufficient know-how, resources and experience. COVEC has been thoroughly screened before being allowed to take part in this tender, there has been no doubt about their ability to do this (it's been confirmed for example by an audit performed by NIK - Polish Supreme Audit Office). They undervalued construction costs, they had little experience with Polish bureaucratic processes and they must have realized it would be difficult for GDDKiA to execute any contractual penalties from Bank of China, so they just abandoned this contract. But if you think they didn't finish it because it's too small a small company with limited resources or they didn't have enough experience building roads, then you clearly don't know anything about this company.

Still I think it's better to have more competition on the market, even if in some cases this means we get unpleasant surprises like with COVEC. Before 2008, there had been something like 7-8 companies that were competing for motorway contracts in Poland. Now there are at least 30, as a result of this competition construction hosts have drastically dropped. In the infamous tender for S8 Konotopa-Powązkowska, only two large consortia (all big players distributed between them) made their offers, as a result this stretch of road cost 206 million PLN per 1km. Sometimes I wonder how much it would have cost if there were 40 companies among 15-20 consortia participating, instead of 6 in 2 consortia.
__________________
████████████████████
toonczyk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2012, 11:40 PM   #9215
mcarling
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,605
Likes (Received): 491

Quote:
Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
In the infamous tender for S8 Konotopa-Powązkowska, only two large consortia (all big players distributed between them) made their offers, as a result this stretch of road cost 206 million PLN per 1km. Sometimes I wonder how much it would have cost if there were 40 companies among 15-20 consortia participating instead of 6 in 2 consortia.
This is called collusion. It might be a good idea to disqualify consortia from bidding.
mcarling no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2012, 12:15 AM   #9216
toonczyk
autostradożerca
 
toonczyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 5,786

There actually was some criminal investigation surrounding this tender, there were rumors about chairman of Strabag in Poland being detained for questioning, but I don't think they actually managed to prove anything to anyone (yet?).
__________________
████████████████████
toonczyk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2012, 03:04 AM   #9217
kamilost
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 861
Likes (Received): 879

Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
I think it is a time to review the whole tender system
The latest (07.21.12) change that was introduced to improve the public procurement law in Poland was the ability to exclude a company from contract award procedures (http://www.uzp.gov.pl/cmsws/page/?D;2171 Public Procurement Law - consolidated text). So GDDKIA did in Grota bridge (S8 Powązkowska - Marki) tendering. It excluded NDI and Alpinie Bau on the basis of article 24.1.1.a PPL:
Quote:
1. Excluded from contract award procedures shall be:
1a) economic operators with whom the given awarding entity has cancelled or terminated a contract or withdrawn therefrom due to circumstances for which the responsibility is beared by the economic operator, if the cancelation or termination of a contract or withdrawal therefrom occurred within 3 years prior to the commencement of contract award procedure, and the value of non-performed procurement amounted at least to 5% of the contract value.
The companies appealed against the decision and won. The verdict was, that GDDKIA had to reevaluate their requests to participate in the procedure, because "contractor's unreliability is not equal to its lack of professionalism" ("niesolidność wykonawcy nie jest tożsama z brakiem jego profesjonalizmu zawodowego" - http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/a/11700/...e-rozpatrywane).

The verdict doesn't make the article a dead letter yet, but is still worrisome.
__________________
Automatyzacja fotorelacji
SKYFLYER
kamilost no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2012, 05:23 AM   #9218
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2154

Quote:
Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
What other criteria would you have them use? We're dealing with public money here, so I'm glad GDDKiA is doing everything in their power to spend as little money as possible. That doesn't mean quality has to suffer, because even if the cheapest offer wins, the contractors are still required to meet the quality level they agreed upon. This is why GDDKiA invested in laboratories and specialists that visit all constructions sites and test quality all the time. There have been some quality issues on roads built by GDDKiA in recent years, but all of them have been detected during construction and had to be fixed "for free" by the contractors.

Any company (or consortium) participating in GDDKiA's tenders has to prove they have sufficient know-how, resources and experience. COVEC has been thoroughly screened before being allowed to take part in this tender, there has been no doubt about their ability to do this (it's been confirmed for example by an audit performed by NIK - Polish Supreme Audit Office). They undervalued construction costs, they had little experience with Polish bureaucratic processes and they must have realized it would be difficult for GDDKiA to execute any contractual penalties from Bank of China, so they just abandoned this contract. But if you think they didn't finish it because it's too small a small company with limited resources or they didn't have enough experience building roads, then you clearly don't know anything about this company.

Still I think it's better to have more competition on the market, even if in some cases this means we get unpleasant surprises like with COVEC. Before 2008, there had been something like 7-8 companies that were competing for motorway contracts in Poland. Now there are at least 30, as a result of this competition construction hosts have drastically dropped. In the infamous tender for S8 Konotopa-Powązkowska, only two large consortia (all big players distributed between them) made their offers, as a result this stretch of road cost 206 million PLN per 1km. Sometimes I wonder how much it would have cost if there were 40 companies among 15-20 consortia participating, instead of 6 in 2 consortia.
Very nice summary. Thats the way it is supposed to be. The only major imporovement I see could be public auctioning instead of just offers.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2012, 05:29 PM   #9219
rakcancer
Registered User
 
rakcancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: XYZ
Posts: 1,198
Likes (Received): 1170

Quote:
Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
What other criteria would you have them use? We're dealing with public money here, so I'm glad GDDKiA is doing everything in their power to spend as little money as possible. That doesn't mean quality has to suffer, because even if the cheapest offer wins, the contractors are still required to meet the quality level they agreed upon. This is why GDDKiA invested in laboratories and specialists that visit all constructions sites and test quality all the time. There have been some quality issues on roads built by GDDKiA in recent years, but all of them have been detected during construction and had to be fixed "for free" by the contractors.

Any company (or consortium) participating in GDDKiA's tenders has to prove they have sufficient know-how, resources and experience. COVEC has been thoroughly screened before being allowed to take part in this tender, there has been no doubt about their ability to do this (it's been confirmed for example by an audit performed by NIK - Polish Supreme Audit Office). They undervalued construction costs, they had little experience with Polish bureaucratic processes and they must have realized it would be difficult for GDDKiA to execute any contractual penalties from Bank of China, so they just abandoned this contract. But if you think they didn't finish it because it's too small a small company with limited resources or they didn't have enough experience building roads, then you clearly don't know anything about this company.
First of all screening companies BEFORE let them even participate in tendering is most important in my opinion. In some countries like Germany or USA companies without necessary experiences or just too small are not allowed to large contracts.
Secondly that is right that GDDKiA invested money in laboratories and they control and screen companies during construction. They do a good job here.
My whole point is that our law is badly made and is directed toward as little spending money as possible. The regulations should be changed and I think this is more in hands either of Parliament or Government not GDDKiA.
rakcancer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2012, 05:41 PM   #9220
rakcancer
Registered User
 
rakcancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: XYZ
Posts: 1,198
Likes (Received): 1170

Quote:
Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
Any company (or consortium) participating in GDDKiA's tenders has to prove they have sufficient know-how, resources and experience. COVEC has been thoroughly screened before being allowed to take part in this tender, there has been no doubt about their ability to do this (it's been confirmed for example by an audit performed by NIK - Polish Supreme Audit Office). They undervalued construction costs, they had little experience with Polish bureaucratic processes and they must have realized it would be difficult for GDDKiA to execute any contractual penalties from Bank of China, so they just abandoned this contract. But if you think they didn't finish it because it's too small a small company with limited resources or they didn't have enough experience building roads, then you clearly don't know anything about this company.
.
How about instead of making things so complicated in screening just make them not allowed in large contracts if they have never done any job in Poland? COVEC is a very good example of as you said yourself little or no experience with polish/european realities even if they have sufficient money. The whole "screening" in this case doesn't even make a sense. They shouldn't be in Poland with large contracts at all until they prove they have experience with smaller projects.
rakcancer no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autostrady, expressways, highway, motorways, polish motorways, polish roads, polskie drogi, road

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium