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Old December 14th, 2012, 11:32 PM   #9321
Janek0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's worth mentioning that the DK78 Jędrzejów northern bypass opened to traffic. It's expressway standard (GP class) but doesn't have S/A status.
GP class is not an expressway standard, it is a level below.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 11:37 PM   #9322
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GP class could be considered an expressway in many countries. However, standards for GP class roads vary a lot.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 10:30 AM   #9323
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Quote:
GP class could be considered an expressway in many countries. However, standards for GP class roads vary a lot.
It's even better than many motorways all over Europe, but class isn't as important as fact that this road is existing.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 11:26 AM   #9324
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You are right The GP class road (2x2) with junctions looks like motorway for European driver We should remember, that GP class roads (1x1) exist too
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Old December 16th, 2012, 04:06 PM   #9325
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It's even better than many motorways all over Europe, but class isn't as important as fact that this road is existing.
Some of them yes (like the one above), but some of them might have single level junctions (if I'm not wrong) . As Chris said, standard of the GP roads vary a lot.
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Old December 17th, 2012, 02:14 PM   #9326
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Does anybody know more detailed plans regarding 'Via Carpathia'? What bothers me is that plans are normally drawn with a Bialystok - Augustow - Suwalki section, section which has been removed from original 'Via Baltica' because of environmental issues. Are they planning to build that section again? I am aware that they are not going to start building the road any time soon, just curious about the details...

http://rzeszow.gazeta.pl/rzeszow/1,3...arpathia_.html
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Old December 18th, 2012, 01:35 AM   #9327
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I think we were already discussing this topic. In short: in Poland Via Carpatia means mostly S19 which runs from Bialystok to Rzeszow and then to border with Slovakia plus connection between Bialystok and Suwalki and then with Lithuanian border which originally supposed to be S8... As for now there are other priorities in our country so there is no funds for that project. There are some small sections of S19 built (Kock, Miedzyrzecz Podlaski and small section of Rzeszow bypass). Bypass of Lublin is also a part of S19 and is now under construction. Other than that not much is happening. The projections are that whole via Carpatia may be built in 2030 or even 2050...
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Old December 18th, 2012, 02:02 AM   #9328
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I realise that, but I am wondering why E67 couldn't have gone through Bialystok too. Would've saved a lot of work. It seems a bit unnecessary to have another road from Suwalki to Zambrow (S61) if they are planning to build a Bialystok - Suwalki connection.
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Old December 18th, 2012, 08:49 PM   #9329
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That was a bit of politics back in mid of first decade of 2000. Local politicians from Lomza region were very involved in shifting transit route from originally planned Warsaw-Bialystok-Suwalki to one via Lomza. On the top of that there was a very strong lobbing from environmental organisations - they blocked construction of bypass of Augustow already in progress because of some unique areas around Augustow has been on the list to be preserved. It worked out the way now we have S61 in planning.
There was a similar situation with S8 few years ago. Originally, S8 was planned to link Wroclaw with Warsaw through Belchatow and Piotrkow Trybunalski but the discussion started that these towns which are about ten times smaller than city of Lodz don't deserve that so they rerouted S8 towards Lodz.
IMHO S61 makes no sense though is a bit shorter than route via Bialystok. I think it will share the same no-progress future in next 20 years as most of S19 we have spoken before.
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Old December 18th, 2012, 09:24 PM   #9330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
Local politicians from Lomza region were very involved in shifting transit route from originally planned Warsaw-Bialystok-Suwalki to one via Lomza.
To my knowlnedge it was the other way round - Białystok's road directorate (don't know if it was influenced by Białystok's politicians) banned truck traffic through Łomża for year 2005 (thus diverting it through Białystok) - just to show in 2005's AADT figures, that route through Łomża is empty, while the one through Białystok is overloaded and needs urgent upgrade.

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Originally, S8 was planned to link Wroclaw with Warsaw through Belchatow and Piotrkow Trybunalski but the discussion started that these towns which are about ten times smaller than city of Lodz don't deserve that so they rerouted S8 towards Lodz.
To my knowledge it was the other way round. This connection (originally as a motorway) was always planned along the "old" Warszawa-Wrocław route, which was always through Łowicz-Łódź-Sieradz. It was supposed to use A2 from Warszawa to Łódź and then branch as A8 from Łodź to Wrocław. In 1990s (or was it 80s?) they started signing Warszawa-Wrocław route through Piotrków, using already existing 2x2 road (a good move for the time, imo), and some started asking "why planned A8/S8 isn't rerouted too". From then we may agree that discussion started...

So, here you are, folks - in Poland, in the matters connected to politics, we can't even agree on the facts. You have too choose your own version...
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Old December 18th, 2012, 09:33 PM   #9331
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I doubt whether Wrocław - Warszawa via A1-A2 is actually longer than if it had been constructed via Piotrków Trybunalski directly. The difference appears to be pretty minor. Only Wrocław - Piotrków is really somewhat longer than via a direct route.
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Old December 18th, 2012, 09:55 PM   #9332
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Today was opened Jarosław Bypass - on national road no 4 (E40). It`s GP class road (1x4) - 11,3km long. There is short section 2x2 (about 1km) at the beginning of this bypass
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Old December 18th, 2012, 11:24 PM   #9333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E2rdEm View Post
To my knowlnedge it was the other way round - Białystok's road directorate (don't know if it was influenced by Białystok's politicians) banned truck traffic through Łomża for year 2005 (thus diverting it through Białystok) - just to show in 2005's AADT figures, that route through Łomża is empty, while the one through Białystok is overloaded and needs urgent upgrade.
Not sure how Bialystok could ban truck traffic through Lomza. There was and is heavy truck movement through that town. If someone would be against that it would be a people living in that city because a lack of bypass.


Quote:
To my knowledge it was the other way round. This connection (originally as a motorway) was always planned along the "old" Warszawa-Wrocław route, which was always through Łowicz-Łódź-Sieradz. It was supposed to use A2 from Warszawa to Łódź and then branch as A8 from Łodź to Wrocław. In 1990s (or was it 80s?) they started signing Warszawa-Wrocław route through Piotrków, using already existing 2x2 road (a good move for the time, imo), and some started asking "why planned A8/S8 isn't rerouted too". From then we may agree that discussion started...
I think you are talking about very past. The last version just before planning and constructing S8 was to build it via Belchatow. There is a link from GDDiKA:

http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/a/5211/d...rzez-belchatow
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Old December 18th, 2012, 11:33 PM   #9334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I doubt whether Wrocław - Warszawa via A1-A2 is actually longer than if it had been constructed via Piotrków Trybunalski directly. The difference appears to be pretty minor. Only Wrocław - Piotrków is really somewhat longer than via a direct route.
Honestly, if we had more funds at he present it would make sense for both options: to build S8 via Belchatow to Piotrkow and also extension as is now constructed via Sieradz and Lodz.....both would have enough traffic volume to be expressways..... but of course that is only a dreaming at the moment.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 08:41 AM   #9335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E2rdEm View Post
To my knowlnedge it was the other way round - Białystok's road directorate (don't know if it was influenced by Białystok's politicians) banned truck traffic through Łomża for year 2005 (thus diverting it through Białystok) - just to show in 2005's AADT figures, that route through Łomża is empty, while the one through Białystok is overloaded and needs urgent upgrade.


To my knowledge it was the other way round. This connection (originally as a motorway) was always planned along the "old" Warszawa-Wrocław route, which was always through Łowicz-Łódź-Sieradz. It was supposed to use A2 from Warszawa to Łódź and then branch as A8 from Łodź to Wrocław. In 1990s (or was it 80s?) they started signing Warszawa-Wrocław route through Piotrków, using already existing 2x2 road (a good move for the time, imo), and some started asking "why planned A8/S8 isn't rerouted too". From then we may agree that discussion started...

So, here you are, folks - in Poland, in the matters connected to politics, we can't even agree on the facts. You have too choose your own version...
If they are indeed planning to build the Bialystok - Suwalki connection again, they should ditch the Suwalki - Zambrow connection (S61) and return the E67 to the original route via Bialystok. This way, Bialystok - Suwalki would become part of two international routes (Via Baltica and Via Carpathia) and have more chances to get built quicker. Building the Bialystok - Suwalki section and the Zambrow - Suwalki section is a waste of resources and time in my opinion. Having these two duplicating projects there is one of the main reasons why road construction is stagnating in that region.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 08:56 AM   #9336
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The more direct S61 from Lomza to Suwalki is important for the integration of the Baltic States into the EU. It's difficult to see any justification for upgrading Bialystok - Suwalki to 2x2 before Poland has 10,000 kilometers of A/S class roads. The latter might be nice, but the Bialystok - Suwalki traffic is very light and much of that is traffic between the Baltics and Warsaw or beyond that will switch to the S61 when it is completed.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 10:47 AM   #9337
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S61 is not planned through Zambrow but Ostrow Mazowiecka - similar to existing road 677.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 10:59 AM   #9338
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Japinta: My bad.

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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
The more direct S61 from Lomza to Suwalki is important for the integration of the Baltic States into the EU. It's difficult to see any justification for upgrading Bialystok - Suwalki to 2x2 before Poland has 10,000 kilometers of A/S class roads. The latter might be nice, but the Bialystok - Suwalki traffic is very light and much of that is traffic between the Baltics and Warsaw or beyond that will switch to the S61 when it is completed.
The difference between sections Ostrow Mazowiecka - Suwalki via S61 and Ostrow Mazowiecka - Suwalki via Bialystok is about 40 km. Such distance is not significant enough to build a brand new road. My point stands: if they are planning to build an expressway from Suwalki to Bialystok some time in the future (even if 50 years from now), they might as well do it now and ditch the S61 project altogether.

Regarding the traffic numbers between Bialystok and Augustow, they might be low now, but lots of drivers from the Baltics will be switching to that route as S8 improves. Some Lithuanian forumers already have done so and were happy with the choice. Next time I drive through Poland, I will most likely be driving through Bialystok too. Routes through Lomza and through Bialystok are interchangeable for Baltic drivers. Once they finish the S8 from Bialystok to Ostrow Mazowiecka (or improve it significantly), nobody will be driving through Lomza until a significant part of S61 is built. They should forget the S61 and put resources into improving the Suwalki - Bialystok section.

My two cents.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 11:21 AM   #9339
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The difference between sections Ostrow Mazowiecka - Suwalki via S61 and Ostrow Mazowiecka - Suwalki via Bialystok is about 40 km. Such distance is not significant enough to build a brand new road.
40km multiplied by a large number of drivers represents a huge reduction in wasted time, road fatalities, pollution, wasted fuel, and wear and tear on vehicles.

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Regarding the traffic numbers between Bialystok and Augustow, they might be low now, but lots of drivers from the Baltics will be switching to that route as S8 improves.
It's the other way around. Baltic traffic has already switched to the long detour via Bialystok because it's now faster because the S8/DK8 is in much better condition and doesn't go through villages. When the S61 is built, they will all switch back.

If both S61 and a 2x2 Bialystok - Suwalki road will be built, the S61 will have much higher AADT than the Bialystok - Suwalki road; I guess probably more than double. And if you're talking about 50 years in the future, then the S61 will probably obviate the need to upgrade the S8 to 2x3 between Ostrow Mazowiecka and Bialystok.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 02:48 PM   #9340
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What is a source of fatalities, pollution and wasted fuel is having two road projects both of which are going nowhere. Your example shows that the routes through Lomza and Bialystok are interchangeable and people switch between them based on their condition, meaning that the 40km isn't that significant in the end. Once the S8 is improved/built between Bialystok and Ostrow Mazowiecka, all of the Baltic traffic will be switching to the Bialystok route for a long, long time as S61 has no concrete works tendered out, except for a couple of single-lane bypasses. This switch will pump up the AADT of the Suwalki - Bialystok section. The next logical thing would be to use the pumped up AADT figures and the fact that the section will be part of two international corridors (Via Baltica and Via Carpathia) to get funds for the improvements. Once that is built, then consider building S61.

The 40 km. would be a small price to pay for Baltic drivers to get:

1. An expressway connection to Warsaw much sooner (assuming S8 to Bialystok is complete by the time any of this is built, the section via Bialystok would require 60 km. less of brand new expressway construction, which is a huge number);

2. Much better connection to the 'Via Carpathia' road (south east Poland, Ukraine, Slovakia, etc.).

The only reason why anyone even considered building the S61 was because the Augustow - Bialystok section could not be built due to environmental concerns. Now that those concerns are gone and they are planning to build roads there again, they should cancel the S61 altogether, even if just for now.
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