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Old January 31st, 2013, 06:47 PM   #9541
bleetz
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Bad news about the freeze, hopefully they sort it out soon...
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Old January 31st, 2013, 07:15 PM   #9542
E2rdEm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metacatfry View Post
It is my understanding that the funds have been frozen until clarification as to the guilt of these 11 persons has been obtained. IF the courts find them guilty the commission will take a decision then.
If it is so, we're doomed. Courts in Poland are so slow that it will take years to lawfully determine the guilt here.

The whole thing goes on since 2009, and EU was aware of it then. The accused director was fired from GDDKiA soon after that (using some excuse about tolerating bad quality of the newly-built roads, but...).

Over 3 years have passed, and Polish prosecutors were unable to go to court yet. That's disturbing, but that's how the whole justice system works here... So if you want to wait for the justice to do its job, it's gonna be a long wait.

Besides, what kind of "wide-ranging control/audit" does the Commission expect? Polish prosecutors, appropriate agencies etc. are constantly sniffing for any irregularities at the edge between public and private. If their work is not satisfactory for the commission, the commission will have to send their own agents to sniff more. But why are we (Polish authorities) "punished without a trial"? I mean the commission only suspects there are frauds, but nevertheless it acts like the frauds have been commited and stops funding...


Yes, IMHO the whole thing is purely political on the EU side. I don't know if it's about the upcoming summit, or about showing european taxpayers the ZERO TOLERANCE FOR FRAUD policy, but in both cases - it's far from reasonable governance.
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Last edited by E2rdEm; January 31st, 2013 at 07:37 PM.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 09:54 PM   #9543
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The question here is

Is there suspicion that there was more public money spent than necessary?
I.e. is there suspician that unlawfull things happend due to which the actuall money spent was higher? Or did those unlawfull things had no effect on the actuall money spent?

If yes (there is suspicion and having effect), then I can understand that the money could be frozen.

If there is suspicion, but there was actually no loss, or very small lost, because the unlawfull acts were discovered before they could have take any effect, then I think there is no reasoning for the freezing of the money.

Indeed the commission uses the funds as a political tool, which is wrong.


In general it would be better if the payment of the funds would be conditioned not by flawless process, because that is very hard to achieve. But if it could be conditioned by this: if the process is found problematic, it has to be found where did the crime happened and what went wrong. If the crime is punished, those that profited are punished and had to pay the fine that would cover the incrase in price plus excess fine, the subsidy could be payed out, perhaps not in its whole, but at least partially.


But the whole thing is quite problematic. EU should in no way support corruption practices. But on the other side, it should not punish only because corruption happened, when that corruption was prosecuted and the profits were seized. Because in this way it would suggest less prosecution is better, because then no one will stop the money. The EU objectives should work for in everything it does: more construction thanks to the subsidies, less corruption; current mechanism doesnt do that.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 09:58 PM   #9544
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hey! it is Polish authorities that discovered the fraud and it is Polish authorities that permanently monitor the entire situation ... those works are not taking place on no-mans-land. Everything is being supervised and double checked ... hence i cannot see any reason to freeze ... well, no other then political ones [shrugs]

Last edited by Haveblue; February 1st, 2013 at 12:35 AM.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 09:10 PM   #9545
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Is the S17 between Lublin Witosa and Piaski opened and officially signed as expressway yet? So few motorway and expressway openings so far
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Old February 1st, 2013, 09:37 PM   #9546
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nope, still waitin'

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Old February 2nd, 2013, 08:51 PM   #9547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haveblue View Post
nope, still waitin'

What are we waiting for? Extensive audits and inspections?
The whole construction of the Lublin bypass/ring road is going so slow
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Old February 2nd, 2013, 09:40 PM   #9548
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the very construction is going fine ... it is just the commissioning that takes ages
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Old February 2nd, 2013, 09:41 PM   #9549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris80678 View Post
The whole construction of the Lublin bypass/ring road is going so slow
It's winter time
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Old February 2nd, 2013, 10:51 PM   #9550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E2rdEm View Post
If it is so, we're doomed. Courts in Poland are so slow that it will take years to lawfully determine the guilt here.

The whole thing goes on since 2009, and EU was aware of it then. The accused director was fired from GDDKiA soon after that (using some excuse about tolerating bad quality of the newly-built roads, but...).

Over 3 years have passed, and Polish prosecutors were unable to go to court yet. That's disturbing, but that's how the whole justice system works here... So if you want to wait for the justice to do its job, it's gonna be a long wait.

Besides, what kind of "wide-ranging control/audit" does the Commission expect? Polish prosecutors, appropriate agencies etc. are constantly sniffing for any irregularities at the edge between public and private. If their work is not satisfactory for the commission, the commission will have to send their own agents to sniff more. But why are we (Polish authorities) "punished without a trial"? I mean the commission only suspects there are frauds, but nevertheless it acts like the frauds have been commited and stops funding...


Yes, IMHO the whole thing is purely political on the EU side. I don't know if it's about the upcoming summit, or about showing european taxpayers the ZERO TOLERANCE FOR FRAUD policy, but in both cases - it's far from reasonable governance.
that's right innocent until proven guilty, why are funds frozen, why are they trying to undermine Poland's developemnt, they know very well how long it takes for courts to sort out this stuff and POland is doing it...it takes long for justice in every country not just Poland.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 12:44 AM   #9551
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Polish roads cannot withstand winter.







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Old February 4th, 2013, 07:12 AM   #9552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
that's right innocent until proven guilty, why are funds frozen, why are they trying to undermine Poland's developemnt, they know very well how long it takes for courts to sort out this stuff and POland is doing it...it takes long for justice in every country not just Poland.
Just a technicality but it's basically the same way with committing a crime or being a suspect of one - you're arrested first, asked questions later, at least most of the time.. it's not the same as being sentenced to jail time. Of course, in this case consequences can be quite dire, but nonetheless, it does seem to be a fairly standard and logical procedure to follow if there are suspicions of further issues/issues not being completely dealt with.

As a disclaimer, I don't know the full technical details of this case, I'm not judging whether it's right or wrong that the funds were frozen, all I'm getting at is that in general it seems to be a logical procedure.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 09:52 AM   #9553
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Comparing a gift that comes later than expected to a punishment makes no sense to me.
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Old February 6th, 2013, 07:23 AM   #9554
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Well, but it's not exactly a gift per se, is it? There are clear rules for obtaining funding, by entering the European Union and by voting on laws, budets (that would be MP's, of course, elected by us) we agreed on something and have certain expectations. If it was clear that there was no grant, then there'd be no issues, but this is a whole different story altogether.

Might not convince you, but on a personal example. Most of the people are aware that higher education in America is quite expensive. I go to college only because of the grants/loans that are available. I plan on going to college in advance, obviously, based on the information that I have regarding how much funding I can get in grants, scholarships etc. If I get those funds frozen, they clearly mess up my plans and I have every right to be mad - because I was promised them.

And again, I said, I don't know the exact procedures of the EU etc., all I'm arguing for here is that diminishing European grants to simply "gifts" is waaaaaaay oversimplifying the matter.
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Old February 6th, 2013, 03:36 PM   #9555
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Good afternoon,
Could I ask you about the progress on S69 Zywiec-Bielsko Biala? Is there something going on? I just ask because it is near Slovakia and I have seen some awesome pictures of some construction of a road zigzaging between houses labeled S69.
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Old February 7th, 2013, 08:47 PM   #9556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barciur View Post
Well, but it's not exactly a gift per se, is it? There are clear rules for obtaining funding, by entering the European Union and by voting on laws, budets (that would be MP's, of course, elected by us) we agreed on something and have certain expectations. If it was clear that there was no grant, then there'd be no issues, but this is a whole different story altogether.

Might not convince you, but on a personal example. Most of the people are aware that higher education in America is quite expensive. I go to college only because of the grants/loans that are available. I plan on going to college in advance, obviously, based on the information that I have regarding how much funding I can get in grants, scholarships etc. If I get those funds frozen, they clearly mess up my plans and I have every right to be mad - because I was promised them.

And again, I said, I don't know the exact procedures of the EU etc., all I'm arguing for here is that diminishing European grants to simply "gifts" is waaaaaaay oversimplifying the matter.
There are no promises in either the student grant case or the road subsidies case. There are simply rules in place at any given time with clear disclaimers that the rules are subject to change without notice.

The only distinction we can make in either case with cfr. an ordinary gift is that politicians are giving away other people's money.
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Old February 12th, 2013, 07:11 PM   #9557
Biesiada
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Photo relation from E 77 (road 7) Mława- Nidzica (30 km) enjoy!

[img] http://oi50.************/65wyog.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi45.************/6oebyd.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi46.************/jpapud.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi46.************/mcgpdd.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi45.************/34t1gk0.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi50.************/2ntut1k.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi45.************/15zfg2c.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi46.************/1z589vs.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi46.************/11qmxyx.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi48.************/2hds9r9.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi50.************/e987di.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi45.************/2nc15ec.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi47.************/t5nbco.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi47.************/ea5jwp.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi50.************/1ny1q0.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi49.************/518s3k.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi50.************/35bfbm9.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi47.************/on05h.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi46.************/2i72177.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi48.************/2cqmvqx.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi48.************/2hmphsh.jpg[/img]

[img]http://oi47.************/294l7dg.jpg[/img]

Last edited by Biesiada; February 12th, 2013 at 09:42 PM.
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Old February 12th, 2013, 07:16 PM   #9558
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I'd enjoy it more when the photos are not as big
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Old February 13th, 2013, 03:28 PM   #9559
Biesiada
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[IMG]http://oi47.************/675ggi.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://oi50.************/20gz881.jpg[/IMG]
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Old February 13th, 2013, 09:35 PM   #9560
cinxxx
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What would you recommend from Krakow to Kosice? Must not be the fastest, but also maybe picturesque, but not heavy damaged road.

Goole Maps gives me these two options:
1. http://goo.gl/maps/XHLju
2. http://goo.gl/maps/utaeL

But I was also thinking about one of these:
3. http://goo.gl/maps/ilqbY
4. http://goo.gl/maps/GUPiF, here Google Maps seems to have problems routing over the border
5. http://goo.gl/maps/LwmTY
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