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Old May 7th, 2013, 06:18 PM   #9801
Luki_SL
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:)

http://www.budimex.pl/subpage.asp?la...e=2;idmenu=393

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On 7 May 2013, Budimex S.A., in a consortium with Heilit + Woerner Budowlana Sp. z o.o. (leader, 50%), signed a contract with the Rzeszów division of the General Directorate for National Roads and Motorways for the completion of the section of the A4 motorway between the Krzyż and Dębica Pustynia junctions. The value of the contract is PLN 798 million.
The scope of works includes the continuation of the following works:

Completion of the construction of a 34.7 km section of the A4 motorway (between the Krzyż and Dębica Pustynia junctions), together with access roads and the redevelopment of local roads,
Construction of two junctions, Dębica-Żyraków and Dębica-Pustynia, 5 bridges, 9 flyovers on the route of the motorway, 11 flyovers over the motorway, 3 animal passages, culverts and an overpass,
Construction of 64 access roads along the motorway, two tourist service points (Jarząbka and Jawornik) and a Motorway Maintenance Section (Straszęcin).

The consortium has 1.5 years, starting from contract conclusion, to carry out the works.
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Old May 7th, 2013, 08:52 PM   #9802
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Old May 7th, 2013, 10:27 PM   #9803
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The Dutch approach is three-fold; silent pavement, noise barriers and house insulation. In Poland, noise barriers appear to be the only noise abatement measure.
Quite correct.

The last method (house insulation) is completely out of the question in Poland, because, by the law, noise is measured at the building's wall. It seems the bricks also have the right to silence...

And quiet pavement is apparently too high-tech for any Polish road authorities. They have to struggle with ruts caused by the pavement too flexible for summer, and cracks caused by pavement too inflexible for winter, so they assume there's really no choice.

Speed limits caused by noise concerns would be ineffective anyway, so it's not worth bothering either.

That way the only thing that's left are those ugly walls.
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Old May 7th, 2013, 10:56 PM   #9804
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The last method (house insulation) is completely out of the question in Poland, because, by the law, noise is measured at the building's wall. It seems the bricks also have the right to silence...
That is the same in the Netherlands. The noise level is measured at the outside wall, with the one facing the roadway usually being the key wall to determine which measures will have to be taken.

However, it is possible to create a "deaf wall" by ensuring the inside noise levels do not exceed (I believe) 35 dB(A). You can achieve that with insulation and then the outside noise level doesn't matter.

It goes like this in the Netherlands;

1) calculate noise level, see if it exceeds 50 dB(A)
2) if it doesn't, no problem.
3) if it does, then you can apply for a higher limit (from 55 to 65 dB(A) but depends on location (urban, non-urban) and road type, railways are permitted to generate more noise than roads).
4) if noise levels exceed the higher limit, then measures are needed. A noise barrier is one of those measures, but not the only one.

The "higher limit" application is enough to avoid nearly all noise barriers.
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Old May 7th, 2013, 11:36 PM   #9805
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The last method (house insulation) is completely out of the question in Poland, because, by the law, noise is measured at the building's wall. It seems the bricks also have the right to silence...
Insulation can be placed on outer surface of the wall. Anyway, much of the noise comes through windows, so installing better insulated windows would solve the real problem but not the legal problem.
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Old May 7th, 2013, 11:39 PM   #9806
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Yes, windows being the key here. The Dutch building code has a provision that houses need to have an insulation standard of at least 20 decibels from outside levels. Of course, many older houses are not built conform these standards, so they need new double- or triple glass windows. I live next to a railway, the outside wall average noise level (Lden) is 82 decibels...
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Old May 8th, 2013, 01:27 AM   #9807
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Yes, windows being the key here. The Dutch building code has a provision that houses need to have an insulation standard of at least 20 decibels from outside levels. Of course, many older houses are not built conform these standards, so they need new double- or triple glass windows. I live next to a railway, the outside wall average noise level (Lden) is 82 decibels...
It may well work for flats or houses without front gardes. However, its nothing pleasent to be forced live inside only and give up your garden because of high noise levels.

I would agree that inside cities, or densely populated areas with little green the house insulation is a good policy, however I don't think that it would sove the problem for the majority of the family houses that you could see in this example in Poland. Althought new windows are certainly better than the old one even in such a family house. The property price will neverthless be affected whether with noise or the barrier itself. I think better spacial planning is the key here.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 05:36 AM   #9808
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It may well work for flats or houses without front gardes. However, its nothing pleasent to be forced live inside only and give up your garden because of high noise levels.
Arguably, someone profits from lower property prices by buying a cheaper house near major roads ( NIMBY)...

Least be glad Poles are not whining about ''air quality'' instead of noise, complete roads have been downgraded here or had gotten completely retarded speed limits just for the ''air quality''.
2x3 or 2x5 lane motoways through farmville or cowland ( cough A4, cough cough A2) have been set @ 100km/h...

Also, apparently, the cows and birds are more important than people, seeing how high speed rails run above ground near neighbourhoods, but in a tunnel under some un-used grassland.

Rather have silly noise barriers everywhere than low speed limits decided by the green Mafia.

I'd be far more happy with noise barriers and 140 km/h than crappy 80 or 100km/h and no noise barriers.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 01:47 AM   #9809
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Arguably, someone profits from lower property prices by buying a cheaper house near major roads ( NIMBY)...
I don´t know what you mean exactly. The noise produced by traffic is a externality. I.e. such a economic good (in this case with negative effect) which comes to existence due to some economic activity, but there is no direct way how to bill the costs of it.

I.e. the houselord could say, the value of the law noise level is X. The cars making the noise destroy the peace and by this thuse cause me costs in the size of X. I charge the car users X in order to allow them make the noise. Or in other way, the drivers would ask the landlord for how much is he willing to allow them use the road with certain noise levels. The accepted price would be X.

This is not possible, by multiple reasons. You can't do it individually and measure the noise caused by every vehicle, let alone charge every vehicle.

The solution is to tax the car users and from the tax money create anti noise measures that would compensate the landlords, e.g. by creating noise walls, realignments, insulation, etc.

In the case of railways or private roads it would be possible to do it directly without the taxes because there is only one entity to deal with.

The important notion should be that the law should be set so, that it compensates the change compared with the current state for the landlords. E.g. the traffic rose, or there is a new road build.

When a new housing construction comes to already existing road, the costs should not be on the side of the motorists though, because there is no change in the enviroment after their investments were made already (unless e.g. traffic levels increase).


In Poland is it often the first case, i.e. houses are already there and a road comes, or traffic increases. But in this case I see newly built houses mostly. Therefore I wanted to point out that the spacial planning is quite important, because it can avoid those problems altogether.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 02:53 AM   #9810
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Surel is correct about negative externalities. The solution solution is to base the periodic (annual or biannual in most jurisdictions) vehicle registration fees upon measured pollution (air pollution and noise pollution) levels produced by the vehicle times the distance driven since the previous registration.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 09:19 AM   #9811
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The spatial development in rural Poland is quite disadvantageous for fitting the two priorities of transportability and livability together due to very extensive ribbon development. I don't have that knowledge why this is so but suspect that the chaotic history of the Polish economy in the 20. century and particularly the politics surrounding land ownership has much to do with it.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 12:32 PM   #9812
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The spatial development in rural Poland is quite disadvantageous for fitting the two priorities of transportability and livability together due to very extensive ribbon development. I don't have that knowledge why this is so but suspect that the chaotic history of the Polish economy in the 20. century and particularly the politics surrounding land ownership has much to do with it.
Yeah. Similar situation is on many places in the Czech republic, although the ribbon development is not so extensive.

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Surel is correct about negative externalities. The solution solution is to base the periodic (annual or biannual in most jurisdictions) vehicle registration fees upon measured pollution (air pollution and noise pollution) levels produced by the vehicle times the distance driven since the previous registration.
You would also need to create noise and pollution maps to find the counterpart to this - the affected landlords.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 04:07 PM   #9813
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When a new housing construction comes to already existing road, the costs should not be on the side of the motorists though, because there is no change in the enviroment after their investments were made already (unless e.g. traffic levels increase).
That is what I meant.

If you buy a house near a motorway, then don't complain about the noise or pollution, because you probably spent about 25.000 euros less ( or even more less) than people for a similar house elsewhere.

The A13 for example in Rotterdam near Overschie, that road has been around for 60 years or more. I absolutely hate the retards who move there buying a cheap house, then complain about the motorway later.

I'd gladly trade off some ''quiet'' for so much money and live next to a motorway... Ideally easy access like this would be awesome, get in car and within 30 seconds I'm on a motorway .
One of my mates lives on that road, and I certainly have no problem sleeping there...
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Old May 13th, 2013, 02:46 AM   #9814
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I lived 10m from a busy road with speed limit of 50km/h on it. What I heard constantly through double glazed windows was vroom, vroom, vroom from 6 am till midnight. Opening windows was not an option as you would'nt be able to watch the TV or speak without shouting.
During summer it was especially annoying as we the wall was facing south (and the road) and it was either a lot of noise or 27-28 C in the room...
I do not mind sound barriers, but I can tell you that they can be done the better way (in the UK they put banks on both sides of the road and then plant trees on them for example).
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Old May 13th, 2013, 11:03 AM   #9815
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changing topic for a while: can someone please update the map on the front page? A4 is still in a tender stage on it, whereas the contract has been signed something like one week ago.
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Old May 13th, 2013, 11:20 AM   #9816
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changing topic for a while: can someone please update the map on the front page? A4 is still in a tender stage on it, whereas the contract has been signed something like one week ago.
The map, which in my opinion is excellent, was updated only three weeks ago. I don't think it would be fair to expect the maintainers of the map, who are unpaid volunteers, to update it for each and every change. It seems that the map is typically updated once every three to six weeks, for which I'm very grateful.
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Old May 13th, 2013, 11:36 AM   #9817
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it is a major one though
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Old May 13th, 2013, 11:50 AM   #9818
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I think of the major events as the road openings; contract signings, not quite so major, as I see it. I admit, contract signings are perhaps not as minor as, for example, environmental approval.
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Old May 13th, 2013, 03:06 PM   #9819
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Quite bizar that Poland still has not one full completed North-South motorway. I understand that most (foreign) traffic is East-West oriented but still.

Regardless of the missing North-South link at the moment its impressive to see how far Poland has come in the last 5-6 years.
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Old May 13th, 2013, 03:27 PM   #9820
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Yo have to know that almost whole part of National Road 1 south from Łódź is two-lane in each direction just not A-class. The only really missing part of two-lane road is between Toruń and Kowal (around 70 km) which is thanks God right now under construction.
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