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Old June 14th, 2013, 12:43 PM   #10061
toonczyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niemiec w Polsce View Post
I have another question. Officialy they already started building the S8 stretch between Opacz and Jank małe. But so far I haven't read or heard something about this. Neither have I seen any pictures. Have they already started building?
They have to finish up the design first (it's a design and build contract), that shouldn't take too long - we should see some preliminary works starting in July/August.
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Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Impreglio/Salini ****ed up in Romania too, at a viaduct, am not an expert, but there is much debate on the RO forum about this...
Here it's obviously a problem of miscalculating costs and the Italians had very little to do with that - it's mostly Kobylarnia (Salini's Polish partner) who's responsible for that.
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Old June 14th, 2013, 12:51 PM   #10062
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According to GUS, there are 131.000 kilometers of unpaved roads in Poland.

What kind of roads are these usually? I've hardly seen any unpaved roads in Poland, unless they include access roads to farmland. Apparently there is 2 kilometers of unpaved urban Droga Krajowa and 63 kilometers of unpaved rural Droga Wojewódzka. The bulk of the unpaved roads however, are communal roads (120.000 kilometers), approximately half of all communal roads in Poland are unpaved according to this data.
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Old June 14th, 2013, 12:56 PM   #10063
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No idea, I only saw some unpaved roads in forests when I went for mushrooming, but Poland is densely forested so they might count these roads in forests.
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Old June 14th, 2013, 01:11 PM   #10064
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Quote:
Here it's obviously a problem of miscalculating costs and the Italians had very little to do with that - it's mostly Kobylarnia (Salini's Polish partner) who's responsible for that.
I see. Anyway I guess it would have been more wise to take the Strabag consortium. At least I am not aware that there were any problems of road constructions whenever this company was involved (correct me if am wrong).

Quote:
According to GUS, there are 131.000 kilometers of unpaved roads in Poland.
I can imagine this very well. Once it is true that there are many unpaved forest roads or roads through the middle of nowhere (perfect for bycling). And otherwise for example like in Germany, these roads are very often open to cars. So, i guess they are counted in. Of course daily "traffic" on those roads you can count on one hand.
Further more many new housing estate areas are without paved roads. If a new area is sold for private houses, no roads are build. Otherwise like in Germany where they first build the roads before they sell even one place.
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Old June 14th, 2013, 01:45 PM   #10065
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Originally Posted by Niemiec w Polsce View Post
I see. Anyway I guess it would have been more wise to take the Strabag consortium. At least I am not aware that there were any problems of road constructions whenever this company was involved (correct me if am wrong).
It's not a matter of making wise decisions, but rather decisions based on existing law. And those are the rules: contractors are responsible for calculating a proper price (including all risks), best price wins. GDDKiA is starting to mix in some other factors (minor importance like 5%) such as extended warranty, but price will always be the main factor. I don't know of any major contracts Strabag had problems with, but they are prone to delays as much as every company (for example on Łopuszańska interchange in Warsaw).
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Old June 14th, 2013, 01:47 PM   #10066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
According to GUS, there are 131.000 kilometers of unpaved roads in Poland.

What kind of roads are these usually? I've hardly seen any unpaved roads in Poland, unless they include access roads to farmland. Apparently there is 2 kilometers of unpaved urban Droga Krajowa and 63 kilometers of unpaved rural Droga Wojewódzka. The bulk of the unpaved roads however, are communal roads (120.000 kilometers), approximately half of all communal roads in Poland are unpaved according to this data.
An obvious example of typica Polish unpaved road:
https://www.google.pl/maps?ll=53.548...253.8,,0,-0.48

There are also unpaved roads even in Warsaw - in the parts of the city where urban sprawl is faster than city authorities.
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Old June 14th, 2013, 02:03 PM   #10067
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Unfortunately you're right. Even after choosing a couple of times the "wrong" companies, there is still a risk of doing the same mistake over and over again. But this is due to the law situation. I hope the Polish authorities take in the future these bad experiences in consideration and laws are going to be changed or updated. At least they started to ban failed companies from future tenders. But it is a pity to waste 1 year of "no-construction" to correct these mistakes.
On the other hand i am always impressed of the pace here in Poland. If there a no financial problems or administration issues, a complete highway is build up in less than 2 years.
In Germany for instant you can very often read on the construction information boards along the highways. We are building for you till 2016. And this is only to change from two lanes to three lanes on a 20km stretch and it takes them at least 4 years just of pure construction.
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Old June 14th, 2013, 05:44 PM   #10068
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Today, 4 new tenders for construction of express roads in Poland were launched (total appr. 46 km).

S5 Poznań – Bydgoszcz odc. w. Mielno z węzłem - Gniezno (dk 5, w. Łubowo) (18,3 km w systemie tradycyjnym) http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/a/12550/...lsce-ogloszony
S7 Warszawa – Gdańsk odc. Miłomłyn (S7) - Ostróda Północ (dw 530) (9,2 km w systemie tradycyjnym) http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/a/12544/...kspresowej-S-7
S19 Lublin – Rzeszów odc. w. Sokołów Małopolski Północ - Stobierna RZ (12,5 km w systemie optymalizuj i buduj) http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/a/12549/...inki-ogloszone
S19 Lublin – Rzeszów odc. w. Świlcza (DK 4 bez węzła) - w. Rzeszów Południe (d. Kielanówka z węzłem) (6,3 km w systemie optymalizuj i buduj) http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/a/12549/...inki-ogloszone

Last week, 5 new tenders were launched. There are 9 more new tenders to be launched by the end of June 2013.

Total, in June 2013, tenders for construction of 250 km of express roads were and will be launched.

In second part of 2013, tenders for construction of 480 km of express roads will be launched.

Żródło: http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/a/12548/...argi-ogloszone
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Old June 14th, 2013, 06:16 PM   #10069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niemiec w Polsce View Post
At least they started to ban failed companies from future tenders.
No-can-do.

A famous example of Alpine failing twice on A1. After first failure, the second tender was not bid by the failed company (Alpine Polska IIRC), but another one ("mother" Alpine Bau). Different company, it cannot be responsible for the previous failure, so GDDKiA were forced to allow this bid.

Lately GDDKiA tried to exclude two failed companies from the tender for S8 near Warsaw (Trasa Salomea-Wolica vel Janki bypass). They went to court, and our beloved justice ruled that "failing before does not mean that the company lacks skill or potential to build the road". GDDKiA had to accept their bids.

So, forget it. We are stuck with out-of nowhere consortiums like Salini/Kobylarnia and companies that fail to deliver anything, they still have the right to overbid and then be kicked out of the contract...


As for Astaldi - they are not completely failing on Warsaw's subway, although they have a lot of problems. Delays are in most part due to poor paperwork done by the city. There are also delays caused by technical problems, but these are bypassed by changing the schedule.

With the road building, worst scenario is when the contractor does nothing, due to his own financial or logistical problems. Astaldi seems to be pushing the work forward, so they have mostly positive image here.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 02:23 AM   #10070
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
According to GUS, there are 131.000 kilometers of unpaved roads in Poland ...
This is a very surprising statistic and my instinct is to say that this out by an order of magnitude. But I suspect this includes all access roads and forest roads, in which case the figures may be right, though still astonishing.

However, Poland is a rather large country that is sparsely populated in many places. When you go off the beaten track it is common to find roads like the ones shown below, where a handful of properties are connected by 10-20 km of unpaved roads. Understandably, traffic volumes are low (~10/hr) consisting mainly of private cars, so once built these roads tend to last a long time and do not require significant maintenance.


An example of an unpaved road near Trzciel (80 km west of Poznań). The yellow signs show house numbers and point to nearby properties.



A typical large house in the countryside and its private, unpaved road



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Old June 15th, 2013, 10:53 AM   #10071
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Think of it that there is circa 1 kilometer of unpaved road for every 2.5 km˛ of Poland. If you put it like that it doesn't sound much.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 01:37 PM   #10072
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It's not much comparing to Scandinavian countries. As far as I remember about half of Swedish road network consists of gravel roads. It is possible to drive constantly on such tracks for many Swedish miles.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 02:16 PM   #10073
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Some questions to Polish forumers:

- A-4, A-2 and A-1 are going to be finished in 2015 or later?

- How is undergoing Via Baltica in Poland? Is already under construction? I read that some ecologists opposed it's construction.

- And final question (this is more general and if you don't want to answer I understand it): how roads (excluding motorways) have improved in the last 15 years in Poland? I read that Poland Infraestructure 15 years ago was obsolete but now the country is doing a lot of improvements, not only in motorways but also in ordinary roads.
Perhaps local roads are in bad condition? (is a question)

Thank you and sorry for my bad english
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Old June 15th, 2013, 02:33 PM   #10074
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^most of main roads have been improved dramaticaly.



green - very good or good
yellow - average
orange - below average
red - bad
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Old June 15th, 2013, 02:41 PM   #10075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
According to GUS, there are 131.000 kilometers of unpaved roads in Poland.

What kind of roads are these usually? I've hardly seen any unpaved roads in Poland, unless they include access roads to farmland. Apparently there is 2 kilometers of unpaved urban Droga Krajowa and 63 kilometers of unpaved rural Droga Wojewódzka. The bulk of the unpaved roads however, are communal roads (120.000 kilometers), approximately half of all communal roads in Poland are unpaved according to this data.
Very often new neighborhoods in Poland don't have paved roads because:
a) they develop too fast
b) heavy construction cars could damage paved roads
So, for instance, some unpaved roads from where I live look like that.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 10:34 PM   #10076
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DK10 Szczecin

As you have seen, I've recently driven in Szczecin. I was wondering if there are plans to remove the remaining traffic lights between Kijewo and the bridge towards the city center. There are two busy traffic lights.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 10:57 AM   #10077
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S10 Stargard Szczeciński

A few photos of S10 around Stargard Szczeciński.

image hosted on flickr

S10-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

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S10-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

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S10-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

S10-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

S10-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

S10-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

S10-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

S10-8 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

S10-9 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

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S10-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

S10-11 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
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Old June 16th, 2013, 12:52 PM   #10078
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Stargard Szczeciński Centum
Stargard Szczeciński Zachód

Is it the most longest signs in Poland?
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Old June 16th, 2013, 01:16 PM   #10079
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I can tell you that here(10km west of Poznan) the number of unpaved roads have decreased significantly. I've lived here for 10 years. The roads which were rather in the forests or in the fields 10 years ago are now normal residental area roads.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 05:53 PM   #10080
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The S3 between Swiebodzin Poludnie and Sulechów opens tomorrow
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