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Old June 24th, 2013, 11:02 PM   #10141
aswnl
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Hard shoulders, a median and grade seperated junctions are not only reserved for motorways. Motorway design is much more the complete alignment of a road.
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Old June 24th, 2013, 11:08 PM   #10142
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Of course. But if one characteristic is not existing, it cannot be a motorway!
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Old June 24th, 2013, 11:10 PM   #10143
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That's incorrect. A hard shoulder is a standard design component for motorways, but in most countries it is not compulsory for placing a motorway-sign..
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Old June 24th, 2013, 11:13 PM   #10144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Of course. But if one characteristic is not existing, it cannot be a motorway!
Eh. There are still few roads in Europe that shouldn't be highways but they are. A4 got everything that Autostrada needs. Hard shoulders are needed but not necessary.
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Old June 24th, 2013, 11:21 PM   #10145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aswnl View Post
That's incorrect. A hard shoulder is a standard design component for motorways, but in most countries it is not compulsory for placing a motorway-sign..
So why not signing the Polish S3 as A3? For instance in Germany there are many Autobahns without hard shoulders, with a lot of interchanges on a short distance or with a mediocre alignment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasza View Post
Eh. There are still few roads in Europe that shouldn't be highways but they are. A4 got everything that Autostrada needs. Hard shoulders are needed but not necessary.
That's also my opinion - as aforementioned:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
But I think it doesn't matter. I don't give a tinker's damn about it. Motorway standard does only mean that the road has at least two carriageways with at least 2 lanes in each direction and is grade-separated. I think all Polish S roads should be signed as A roads. The same in other countries like Czech Republic, Austria, Italy, Slovenia, Germany,... Pasta!
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Old June 24th, 2013, 11:46 PM   #10146
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No, motorway standard is MORE than just a 4-lane grade-seperated two carriageway road. One of the most important design characteristics is in the alignment of the road, as I mentioned before. And coming on topic again, that's also the reason why there are D and R roads in CZ, and A- and S-roads in PL.
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Old June 25th, 2013, 12:12 AM   #10147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aswnl View Post
No, motorway standard is MORE than just a 4-lane grade-seperated two carriageway road. One of the most important design characteristics is in the alignment of the road, as I mentioned before. And coming on topic again, that's also the reason why there are D and R roads in CZ, and A- and S-roads in PL.
That is right. In Czech republic and Slovakia D stands for "dálnice/diaľnica" = motorway and R "rýchlostní/á cesta" = "expressway". There are some differences.

For example in Slovakia:
  1. Expressways may have smaller curve radius.
  2. Expressways may have higher cant.
  3. Minimum width of expressway is 22,5 m (27,5 in motorway) in case of Slovakia
  4. In same exceptional cases, expressways may have level-crossings with traffic lights.
Morover, in some other coutries, there are different general speed limits for expressway and motorway.


Traveled many of European countries, I find the difference between expressways and motorways noticeable. The exemplary case is hungarian M0 expressway
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Old June 25th, 2013, 12:44 AM   #10148
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The real point is that many expressways are build in compliance with motorway standards (like S3 or S8 east of Wrocław or R35 east of Olomouc), or even roads signed as DK are build in compliance with modern expressway standards (like DK16).

Signing underperforming roads as motorways in all of Europe is common and results from gradually upgrading motorway standards for newly constructed motorways. That's why some roads signed as motorways in the past do not meet modern motorway standards.

A4 from intersection with A18 towards Wrocław will be featured with hard shoulder (and possibly third lane in the package) in the future. No exact dates though...
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Old June 25th, 2013, 12:51 AM   #10149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aswnl View Post
No, motorway standard is MORE than just a 4-lane grade-seperated two carriageway road.
But what is the practical difference for the road users? Why must drivers be advised that it is a different road type? I think is it only necessary to realize what I aforementioned. That is the most important thing that helps me to find a route for a trip. If the alignment is too dangerous, you can reduce the speed limit on that sections. Reduced speed limits does exist on all kinds of roads.
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Old June 25th, 2013, 01:06 AM   #10150
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Signing underperforming roads as motorways in all of Europe is common and results from gradually upgrading motorway standards for newly constructed motorways. That's why some roads signed as motorways in the past do not meet modern motorway standards.
Of course. But it's stupid!

An example: An old road was built as a motorway, is signed as motorway. A new road will be built according to new expressway standards. That kind of roads have often the same or even better standard as the old motorway. But they will be signed as an expressway. The mad is, that the old motorway will remain signed as a motorway!

Well, in addition I am a little bit disgruntled because I live in Germany and our expressways are signed as normal highways (2x1 road, B road), our stupid "Yellow Autobahns". That differs with Poland, Czech Republic,...
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Old June 25th, 2013, 09:59 AM   #10151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Of course. But it's stupid!

An example: An old road was built as a motorway, is signed as motorway. A new road will be built according to new expressway standards. That kind of roads have often the same or even better standard as the old motorway. But they will be signed as an expressway. The mad is, that the old motorway will remain signed as a motorway!

Well, in addition I am a little bit disgruntled because I live in Germany and our expressways are signed as normal highways (2x1 road, B road), our stupid "Yellow Autobahns". That differs with Poland, Czech Republic,...
I don't like to confuse you a little bit more, but what is motorway according to traffic signs doesn't have to be motorway according to numbering.

In Slovakia, and I bet in other countries, as an expressway could be marked common 1x2 lane road as well. However, it is a good quality primary road. I know there is a lot of expressways in Lower Austria though they are nothing but primary roads with speed limits of an expressway.
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Old June 25th, 2013, 12:44 PM   #10152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Of course. But it's stupid!

An example: An old road was built as a motorway, is signed as motorway. A new road will be built according to new expressway standards. That kind of roads have often the same or even better standard as the old motorway. But they will be signed as an expressway. The mad is, that the old motorway will remain signed as a motorway!

Well, in addition I am a little bit disgruntled because I live in Germany and our expressways are signed as normal highways (2x1 road, B road), our stupid "Yellow Autobahns". That differs with Poland, Czech Republic,...
Yes, I agree that it is stupid. Technically, this stretch of A4 doesn't even have a S class (because S roads in Poland also need to have hard shoulder).
There are some minor differences between A and S class in Poland, but still Polish S class is as good (or even better) as A classes in many other countries.
There are also differences between S roads built from scratch and "normal roads" upgraded to S. The latter often have a lot of junctions, some of them even have bus stops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markfos View Post
This old part of A4 was renovated few years ago, but it was impossible to add shoulders on this stretch because of the construction of these viaducts.
Actually, it seems, that the viaducts are the only places that have hard shoulder (not all of them)
https://maps.google.de/maps?saddr=A4...48.87,,0,14.72
https://maps.google.de/maps?saddr=A4...17.93,,0,18.62
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Old June 25th, 2013, 04:07 PM   #10153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
But what is the practical difference for the road users? Why must drivers be advised that it is a different road type? I think is it only necessary to realize what I aforementioned. That is the most important thing that helps me to find a route for a trip. If the alignment is too dangerous, you can reduce the speed limit on that sections. Reduced speed limits does exist on all kinds of roads.
The type of the road determines my driving style. The difference is that on a motorway (A) I know that I can safely drive the Bavarian style, while on S roads I know to expect occasional obstacle from the last epoch, like a low-radios curve on a hump (see link). I see no sense in it other than a slight message that the road is narrower and bit curvier. Really not a deal.


I only wish that in Germany there were similar hints on highway maps, so that one could avoid sh*t places like Saarland, where "highways" resemble rollercoasters, with occasional speed limits of 60 (!), or one-lane sections. It would be to the benefit to manual routing, and would save me the shock of seeing Saarbrücken or Völklingen.


As for routing in Poland, the difference in classification is so small, and the situation where A would compete with S so rare, that it practically makes no difference. I have already corrected four-lane S on openstreetmap.org as "motorway", but was overriden for no specific reason.


Link: Looks innocent, but is quite sharp: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52...om=16&layers=M
(where the number 289 is)
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Old June 25th, 2013, 08:49 PM   #10154
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Is there an ETA on the S8 completion around Mszczonów? I see that Mostostal is the contractor, aren't they in financial difficulties? Progress appears to be slow, the rest of S8 was completed a while ago.

Planowana data zakończenia robót: III kw. 2012 r.

This was not achieved obviously.
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Old June 25th, 2013, 11:53 PM   #10155
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There was a problem with a short stretch with a house near the escarpment (you can see some photos here). They should however finish it in a month. The rest seems to be complete.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 02:29 PM   #10156
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A1

Infamous bridge in Mszana on A1 will be fixed by Polish company INTERCOR.
http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/1833/aktualnosci
Bridge should be open for traffic in the begging of 2014.
http://wyborcza.biz/biznes/1,100896,...html#BoxBizTxt
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Old June 27th, 2013, 04:36 PM   #10157
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Found this interesting. Planned network of motorways and expressways in Poland.


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Old June 27th, 2013, 04:39 PM   #10158
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Is S16 really off the table? Some parts of DK16 are being reconstructed to virtual droga ekspresowa standards.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 04:45 PM   #10159
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I don't remember it has ever been planned as S road.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 10:48 PM   #10160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
Infamous bridge in Mszana on A1 will be fixed by Polish company INTERCOR.
http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/1833/aktualnosci
Bridge should be open for traffic in the begging of 2014.
http://wyborcza.biz/biznes/1,100896,...html#BoxBizTxt
I read that the costs should be covered by the guaranty of Alpine. I have a question, how does this guaranty look like?

1) Is it just that the GDDKiA withhold some payment to the Alpine?

2) Or did Alpine made actually also some deposit by the GDDKiA which won't be refunded?

I would like to know this in order to get the idea about how are similar situations managed by GDDKiA. I would in general assume that payments for the work are withhold and paid with a delay just after the work is checked. In this way the ordering party would only pay for the work that is done. But even so in a situation like this, it would not be enough. The ordering party would refuse the last payment, but it would already incur some additional losses. In order to move the risk on the contractor, I would require both: withholding payments till the work is checked as done, and a security deposit, for the case that contractor leaves the work undone, to be able to cover the increase in costs due to having to find another contractor, etc.

The ordering party could of course demand the additional costs from Alpine, but assuming that most probably if a contractor left the construction it would be bankrupt as well, this is not really secure enough.

Anyway, I hope for 2014!!
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