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Old June 27th, 2013, 11:07 PM   #10161
katsuma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
I read that the costs should be covered by the guaranty of Alpine. I have a question, how does this guaranty look like?

1) Is it just that the GDDKiA withhold some payment to the Alpine?

2) Or did Alpine made actually also some deposit by the GDDKiA which won't be refunded?

I would like to know this in order to get the idea about how are similar situations managed by GDDKiA. I would in general assume that payments for the work are withhold and paid with a delay just after the work is checked. In this way the ordering party would only pay for the work that is done. But even so in a situation like this, it would not be enough. The ordering party would refuse the last payment, but it would already incur some additional losses. In order to move the risk on the contractor, I would require both: withholding payments till the work is checked as done, and a security deposit, for the case that contractor leaves the work undone, to be able to cover the increase in costs due to having to find another contractor, etc.

The ordering party could of course demand the additional costs from Alpine, but assuming that most probably if a contractor left the construction it would be bankrupt as well, this is not really secure enough.

Anyway, I hope for 2014!!
I'd imagine we are talking about gwarancja bankowa (bank guarantee) here, which would be a certain amount guaranteed by the issuer's bank in respect of the due diligent completion of a contract by the tender's winning party.

Since the project was not completed by Alpine with due diligence as stipulated by the contract, it (contract) was cancelled and the proceeds from bank guarantee have been taken over by GDDKiA.

PS. Other Polish forumers: pls. feel free to correct me, if I am wrong.

Last edited by katsuma; June 27th, 2013 at 11:21 PM.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 11:34 PM   #10162
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S12/S17/S19 Lublin bypass foto GDDKiA http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/a/12122/...owie-2013-roku
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Old June 28th, 2013, 12:17 AM   #10163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katsuma View Post
I'd imagine we are talking about gwarancja bankowa (bank guarantee) here, which would be a certain amount guaranteed by the issuer's bank in respect of the due diligent completion of a contract by the tender's winning party.

Since the project was not completed by Alpine with due diligence as stipulated by the contract, it (contract) was cancelled and the proceeds from bank guarantee have been taken over by GDDKiA.

PS. Other Polish forumers: pls. feel free to correct me, if I am wrong.
Yes, you are correct. Bank guarantees are used as security for the preformance of the construction contracts. These are uselfull devices because they work even in case of bankruptcy of the contractor (the issuing bank is still solvent). In this case GDDKiA called on the guarantee and got fresh cash disbursed by the bank.

Personally I work for some Czech and Slovak banks worried that GDDKiA is going to call on the guarantees issued at the request of Czech and Slovak subcontractors in projects lead by Polimex-Mostostal as the general contractor around Poland. These guys (bankers) really can't sleep because this can happen anytime seeing what PMX is doing (or should I say: not doing). If not state aid to PMX (too big to fail story...) these guarantees would be drawn already. We will see, if it happens this will be the first sign they are going to kick out PMX from A1, A4 and S69.
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Old June 28th, 2013, 12:24 AM   #10164
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@Katsuma, @bad boy

TY.
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Old June 28th, 2013, 03:36 AM   #10165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
So why not signing the Polish S3 as A3?
Differences between polish expressways (Droga ekspresowa, S type road)
and polish motorways (Autostrada, A type road)

Lane width:
A 3,75m S 3,5m

hard shoulder width:
A 3m S 2,5m

Maximum speed limit:
A 140 km/h S 120 km/h

Minimum disatance between interchanges:

A 15km (conditionally 5 km)
S 5 (3)
in urban area
A 5 (3)
S 3 (1,5)

Thats all

All other parameters (curve radius etc) are the same for both A and S type road

of course in Poland exist 1/2 profile exspressways (about 20% of all exspressways) but max speed limit is 100 km/h for them

These rules have been in Poland for 20 years so any new controlled-access highway with lane width less than 3,75m and hard shoulder less than 3m can't be signed as motorway (like S3).
Unless polish goverment downgrade minimal standards for motorways as for exspressways


Of course these rules doesn't suit to old roads like A4 section between Wrocław and Legnica (built in 30' XX century). This road has been always signed as motorway. It doens't suit new polish standards even for exspressways but they didn't decide to downgrade this road.
Of cours it was renovated but in this process they didn't build hard shoulder.
It will be rebuild with hard shoulder in next few years.

What is reason to build two types controlled acces higway with minimal differences ?

1) Price. Differences are minimal so prices too
Since 2008 average build cost in Poland
for A road 40M polish zloty S road 35M polish zloty (3,2 USD = 1 polish zloty)
although it's hard to say because spread is from 20M to 200M
but sometimes exspressway can be more expensive than motorway because usually exspressway has more interchanges.

2) Polish law
Almost all section of polish motoways are or will be toll roads (excluding some bypasses of bigger cities like A4 in Katowice or Krakow or A8 in Wroclaw) and many sections of polish motorways are private.
So this little difference between motorway and expsressway is excuse to gathering toll

All toll road should have free alternative national road (Droga krajowa - DK)
For A1 it's DK 91 (former DK 1) for A2 it's DK92 (former DK 2)
Some sections of A6 near Szczecin or A18 to border with Germany doens't have alternative road so they won't be toll road

But all polish expsressways are or will be toll road for vehicles heavier than 3,5T in electonical system of gathering toll called Viatoll

Many polish exspressways were or will be upgraded from existing national roads. Sometimes some section of old nation road change in to exspressway sometimes all section like
S8 from Piotrkow (interchange with A1 to Warsaw - former dual carriageway)
S7 from Warsaw to Radom, S8 form Warsaw to Bialystok or S17 from Warsaw to Lublin (former single carriageway) and these roads have many interchanges
So because former national road changed into exspressway then it doesn't have alternative road so can't be toll road

Both S3 and S8 were previously planned as motorways (S3 even was built in corridor planned motorway). But expected AADT far less than 30k decided that they won't be toll motorways but expsressways

Curious fact is that in northern section of S3 and many section of S8 between Wroclaw and Lodz distance between interchanges are like for motorways and interchanges are trumpets (when for exspressways interchanges with minor roads are usually partial cloverleaf)
For toll motorways interchanges with minor roads are trumpets because it's easiest way to collect toll in closed system so both S3 and S8 can be easily upgraded to toll motorways.
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Old June 28th, 2013, 12:55 PM   #10166
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News from GDDKiA: Today 4 new tenders for the following stretches will be announced:
S7 Ostróda – Olsztynek
S5 Korzeńsko – węzeł Widawa Wrocław
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Old June 28th, 2013, 12:58 PM   #10167
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Polish motorways and expressways from 2000 to 2013:
Green - in use
Red - under construction



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Old June 28th, 2013, 01:05 PM   #10168
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Managing polish motorways:



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Old June 28th, 2013, 01:14 PM   #10169
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Tolling system in Poland:



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Old June 28th, 2013, 01:39 PM   #10170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiety_76 View Post
Differences between polish expressways (Droga ekspresowa, S type road)
and polish motorways (Autostrada, A type road)

Lane width:
A 3,75m S 3,5m

hard shoulder width:
A 3m S 2,5m

Maximum speed limit:
A 140 km/h S 120 km/h

Minimum disatance between interchanges:

A 15km (conditionally 5 km)
S 5 (3)
in urban area
A 5 (3)
S 3 (1,5)

Thats all
Actually A class road can have 3,5m wide lanes, especially if it has 3 lanes (or if it is "near a big city"). So, for example, the only difference between A8 Wrocław bypass and S8 towards Łódź is that A8 has 3 lanes and S8 has 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Is S16 really off the table? Some parts of DK16 are being reconstructed to virtual droga ekspresowa standards.
Exactly The fact that there is no S16 in the official plan is not a problem.
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Old June 28th, 2013, 03:12 PM   #10171
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Anyone can tell me why in Poland we haven't got vignette system? Is it possible to purchase one year ticket for all highways in Poland?
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Old June 28th, 2013, 04:00 PM   #10172
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Because when it had been proposed poeople protested. I still can remember some guy in TV who was talking somethig like that "there are no highways or good roads in Poland, so why we should pay!?". But that was years ago.
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Old June 28th, 2013, 06:27 PM   #10173
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that was just bad timing for a good idea

Last edited by jwojcie; July 9th, 2013 at 12:07 PM.
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Old June 28th, 2013, 07:40 PM   #10174
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Today GDDKiA officially announced tenders for five new projects (70 kilometers in total):

S5 Wrocław - Poznań

Korzeńsko – Wrocław North - 50 kilometers in three projects;

S7 Warszawa - Gdańsk

Ostróda South – Olsztynek - 20 kilometers in two projects.

Assuming no delays the projects should be completed in late 2016.

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Old June 28th, 2013, 09:10 PM   #10175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bad_boy View Post
Today GDDKiA officially announced tenders for five new projects (70 kilometers in total):

S5 Wrocław - Poznań

Korzeńsko – Wrocław North - 50 kilometers in three projects;

S7 Warszawa - Gdańsk

Ostróda South – Olsztynek - 20 kilometers in two projects.

Assuming no delays the projects should be completed in late 2016.

In June 2013, GDDIKA announced tenders for appr. 250 km of new expressways http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...ostcount=10106 and http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...ostcount=10068, and http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=9968.

Great month !

Last edited by bewu1; June 28th, 2013 at 09:33 PM.
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Old June 28th, 2013, 09:52 PM   #10176
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Originally Posted by Sasza View Post

Because when it had been proposed poeople protested. I still can remember some guy in TV who was talking somethig like that "there are no highways or good roads in Poland, so why we should pay!?". But that was years ago.
So that was like kicking your own ass. Today you have to pay for every section of highway you rode and you can't buy sth like one year vignette. THAT SICK!! It's not funny at all...
Am I right that we are the only Europe with such a f***ing idea?
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Old June 28th, 2013, 10:35 PM   #10177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rombi View Post
So that was like kicking your own ass. Today you have to pay for every section of highway you rode and you can't buy sth like one year vignette. THAT SICK!! It's not funny at all...
Am I right that we are the only Europe with such a f***ing idea?
That's french idea, so we are not alone. There are few other countries.
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Old June 30th, 2013, 04:54 AM   #10178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rombi View Post
So that was like kicking your own ass. Today you have to pay for every section of highway you rode and you can't buy sth like one year vignette. THAT SICK!! It's not funny at all...
Am I right that we are the only Europe with such a f***ing idea?
No, you're completely wrong.

France, Spain, Italy, Poland, Greece, Serbia, Croatia, Belarus, Bosnia (at least) all have tolling systems rather than vignettes.

Vignettes make sense in big counties with heavy car transit traffic, but they probably wouldn't make the revenue in Poland needed to build everything if they weren't using typical tolling.
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Old June 30th, 2013, 04:12 PM   #10179
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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
No, you're completely wrong.

Vignettes make sense in big counties with heavy car transit traffic, but they probably wouldn't make the revenue in Poland needed to build everything if they weren't using typical tolling.
On a contrary, vignettes make more sense in small transit countries with heavy transit.

Anyway revenue from any tolling system is rather for everyday maintenance than building new network. Costs of building vast new network, like in Poland, will never be covered by tolling.
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 07:27 PM   #10180
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A1 between "Zabrze North" junction and Resting area "Wieszowa".

Direcition: Baltic Sea


Direction: Mediterranean Sea
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