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Old July 22nd, 2013, 12:44 PM   #10281
toonczyk
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Article written by a board member of Bilfinger Infrastructure which is in constant conflict with GDDKiA. He raises some valid points, but those are either minor things (painting of bridges instead of leaving them as béton brut) or things beyond GDDKiA's control (prices of materials). The whole premise that our motorways are more expensive than in Germany doesn't seem credible, it's based on European Court of Auditors's document which compared only a few projects, only motorway in Poland analyzed in this document was A1 Sośnica-Bełk.

It's an interesting document, but I wouldn't draw any major conclusions from it. For those interested:
http://eca.europa.eu/portal/pls/port...1/22810809.PDF
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 01:26 PM   #10282
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I skimmed the document. The report considers costs per km per use (AADT), thus it is not really correct to use it to support a claim that the construction is cheaper in Germany. It might be used to support a claim that the construction is more efficient in Germany as it gives higher return per invested funds in terms of utilization.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 01:58 PM   #10283
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That document also stated that motorway construction costs in Spain are nearly double than in Germany, which is totally false as they picked up the most expensive Spanish project they found (one with many tunnels and viaducts that has been posponed more than once). Reality is the other way round.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 03:44 PM   #10284
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This is the standard of a European Court of Auditors? They compared apples and oranges. Conclusions about entire nations are based on extremely short road segments, some of which are motorways, others are regular two-lane roads, some have tunnels, others have large bridges, some have neither. Conclusions are also drawn far too quickly, it's no surprise traffic volumes are lower in Spain than anticipated, their unemployment skyrocketed to over 25%. Roads are not built for the traffic of next year, but over a longer period of time, most countries require at least a 10-year horizon for EIA's.

Besides, expressing the cost compared to usage is not a very good one. It costs the same to build a 2x2 motorway for 20.000 vehicles per day or for 70.000 vehicles per day.

What a joke..
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 03:49 PM   #10285
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This article is based on report of Court of Auditors. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Auditors)

Here's the report (polish roads on page 36):

http://eca.europa.eu/portal/pls/port...1/22810809.PDF

Report is dated as 2013 but describes roads completed 6-7 years ago.
CoA took into cosideration investments being carried out in urbanised areas with dense population and difficult terrains, very expensive though. Such as:
- 1,4 km of DK63 (national Road) in Częstochowa which is actualy a trestle. Described in report as "New bridge over the railway tracks and large upgrade of the national road in the territory of Częstochowa"),
- mining areas (ex. A1 Bełk - Sośnica, first part of A1 being built in dificult, mining region.
- S8 Radzymin - Wyszków with Wyszkówa bypass, in very dificult wetlands of Bug river.
- 2,9 km Jędrzejów bypass.
- S7 Białobrzegi - Jedlińsk
- Arynów bypass, DK50 is just 3 trestles connected by high embankments

As @Toonczyk previously mentioned this report doesn't seem credible at all if they compare for ex. construction of A1 Bełk - Sośnica (15 km, 2x3) to German A20 (91 km, 2x2), outside of urban areas (quite pleasant road BTW, I use to drive it quite often )
They also compare cost of 1000 m2 of roads in 4 countries. How one can calculate cost of 1000 m2 analizing roads of different class and such different lenghts of roads (A1 vs A20,ex. above)

If they would take S8 Konotopa - Powązkowska, for instance, polish roads would be the most expensive on the planet maybe.

I'm not surprised that Bilfinger rep. is trying to use this report (most of which is just a c..p) as a prove of wrong doing by road athorities in Poland. That's his job.
There are some things that can lessen the cost of roads, ex. unnecesery viaducts built over roads 2x2 with reserve for third lanes, noise barriers etc. Subjects to discuss, I mean cost of roads, not the report which is just good example of how to waste EU funds.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 06:06 PM   #10286
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this article is another in a series of witchhunts directed at the ruling PO government of Donald Tusk, the same government responsible for getting more infrastructure built in the last 7 years than in the last 100 years, the same government that has kept Poland out of recession so far, the only country in Europe that did not suffer a huge economic setback since the crisis began in 2008. It's being directed by members of the anti-business, crypto-socialist, anti-semitic PIS party of J. Kaczynski who has been threatening a coup d'etat to seize power in Poland at all costs and then wage war against Germany, Russia and elements of Polish sociaty dedicated to progress and order and is now organizing referenda to topple municipal leaders all around Poland. So, I wouldn't believe everything you read coming out of GW, all the blame for everything going wrong in Poland and the world is being heaped on Donald Tusk now, too bad Poles have a short memory of all the disasters the Kaczynski twins brought to Poland.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 06:18 PM   #10287
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Uh, okay, let's not get all political about this. Bilfinger Infrastructure (along with a few more major construction companies like Alpine Bau) simply play out their cards in their conflict with GDDKiA, mass media loves the smell of controversy, so they pick up this topic. And that's basically it. While it's sad that journalists don't really feel like relaying accurate information and straightening out some obvious lies, it's been like that for many decades and it seems unlikely that mass media is gonna get all factual and trustworthy now. Also, no matter what they write and say in the media, people are still going to complain that we have no motorways and they are the most expensive ones in the world and the narrowest and of worst quality etc.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 06:26 PM   #10288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
Uh, okay, let's not get all political about this. Bilfinger Infrastructure (along with a few more major construction companies like Alpine Bau) simply play out their cards in their conflict with GDDKiA, mass media loves the smell of controversy, so they pick up this topic. And that's basically it. While it's sad that journalists don't really feel like relaying accurate information and straightening out some obvious lies, it's been like that for many decades and it seems unlikely that mass media is gonna get all factual and trustworthy now. Also, no matter what they write and say in the media, people are still going to complain that we have no motorways and they are the most expensive ones in the world and the narrowest and of worst quality etc.
I don't know about the polish media and politics, but the Auditors report just strongly fits in the German EU policy. In my eyes its just another example of glorifying German policies while setting back other countries.

(If a Czech construction would be analyzed I would however strongly support its overstretched prices, not the case in Poland imho).
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 11:00 PM   #10289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
I don't know about the polish media and politics, but the Auditors report just strongly fits in the German EU policy. In my eyes its just another example of glorifying German policies while setting back other countries.
The German infrastructure policy is disastrous. It's a shame. How can anyone glorify it?
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 11:24 PM   #10290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
The German infrastructure policy is disastrous. It's a shame. How can anyone glorify it?
It depends on whose interests one serves.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 12:18 AM   #10291
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Sensing irony in MichiH's post, I would only add and ask him which German infrastructure policy? Pre-war? Post-war? From 1970s? Or from late 1990s? Maybe current one...?

Let's not compare apples with oranges, that is, results of preceding policies (combined over decades) with the current policy.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 04:11 AM   #10292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
This is the standard of a European Court of Auditors?
Yes, unfortunately, this is the usual standard of the European Court of Auditors.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 04:18 AM   #10293
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Yesterday I drove the DK677 (or is it DW677?) between Ostrow Mazowiecka and Lomza (as part of a longer journey) and am delighted to report that the worst sections of the road (where the speed limit has been 30 km/h because of the poor road condition) are currently being rebuilt. That means extra delays now (alternating flow over a single lane) but it will be much improved, seemingly by the end of this year. In some sections, it appears that the road will be much wider than an ordinary 1x2 carriageway. Does anyone have any information about what exactly is planned?
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 01:16 PM   #10294
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#238
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Yesterday I drove the DK677 (or is it DW677?)(...)
Simple road key:
Axx - motorway - one or two digits
Sxx - expressway - one or two digits (I guess that's all obvious)
DKxx - national road - one or two digits, always
DWxxx - voivodeship (wojewódzka) road - always three digits
DPXxxxx - county (powiatowa) road - four digits followed by a letter or vice versa - a letter followed by four digits. The letter, from what I know, corresponds to the voivodeship's number plate letter (W - Mazovian, K - Lesser Poland/małopolskie, etc.)
DGXxxxxxx - gmina road - a letter and six digits or vice versa, six digits and a letter. The letter is the same as above.
So, yeah, DW677 it is

Just as an example for the different road numbers based on my homecity of Radom:
We're served by DK7, DK9 and DK12 (the first of which, coming from Warsaw, is S7 for a long stretch). Coming from Warsaw, at the first roundabout, going to the city centre via Warszawska st., it becomes DPW5339. Turning into 11 Listopada st., one turns down onto DPW5305. After a while we meet Sportowa st., which is DGW530147. And so on...
However, usually hardly ever will one see signage for any road number with four or six digits (DP and DG), although they often are the most important road in a village (for example, right now I live along DPK1689, but without digging through the Internets, one wouldn't find this road number anywhere).

Uff, too many numbers...
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Last edited by TranslatorPS; July 23rd, 2013 at 01:22 PM.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 03:57 PM   #10295
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So your location should really be (PL) KMY or (PL) KSU instead of (PL) WR

No need for serious digging to find those numbers, at least not for DP - they're displayed on the map of roads in Małopolskie which I have, of which a digital version can be found here:

http://www.zdw.krakow.pl/drogi/mapy-...owa-malopolski

DG is something different, I'm quite sure I live along DGKxxxxxx - but I can't find the damn number. I know it's a street off of DPK1671...
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Old July 25th, 2013, 06:20 PM   #10296
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Causing a 7 km long traffic jam on the most crowded Polish freeway punished only by... a fine:
http://www.dziennikzachodni.pl/artyk...ecia,id,t.html

I think that this fine was no higher than $160 (500 zloty).
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Old July 25th, 2013, 06:40 PM   #10297
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I have never been to Wrocław, but I think, when citizens of this city want to go to polish coast (Międzyzdroje) for holidays, they have a dilema: should they drive through Poland (DK/S3), or Germany (PL - A4, A18, D - A15 -> A13 -> A10 -> A11).
Like every 1 or 2 years some news portal want to check which way is the better one, here is the lastest "test" with some facts, and photos (sorry for size, but these are original sizes), if someone is concerned:

Here they are:





The cars are volvo s40 2,0 turbodiesel, and Golf IV 1,9 turbodiesel

Volvo drives through Germany, Golf through Poland.
And this are their routes (look at A10 in Gemany, lol):



I have to say, I wouldn't go through Germany, espacially now, when there is a lot of S3 done, but when some people don't have to care about gar prices and consupmtion, I can understand the Germany-option They have checked, that through Germany they should arrive 2 minutes earlier than through Poland - in 5h19m. But I wont tell you who was the first now

They've started at 9:07

At 9:31 Volvo left the city, and had 150 km to the border.



9:41: average speed of the Golf



At 10 they were both like 60 kms away:


Last edited by dual-core power; July 25th, 2013 at 06:47 PM.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 06:41 PM   #10298
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10:13: Kamil and Paulina at Parking on A4



10:18: DK3 in Lubin



10:28: Volvo was at Krzyżowa interchange, 207kms to Berlin:



Mind the fact, that this guy stopped on a Highway...

10:48 - after 1h40m:



10:50 - DK3 in Polkowice



10:57: A man selling fruits and mushrooms on A/DK 18:



11:04: DK3 near Nowe Miasteczko


11:14: Volvo was passing the border:



11:45: DK3: Bridge over the river Odra near Sulechów



12:06: DK3 near Nietoperek



12:12 - Volvo - 293 kms left, Golf 262

12:21: DK3





12:29: Golf avoides traffic jam, 9kms more:



12:50: both ca. 200 kms left.

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Old July 25th, 2013, 06:42 PM   #10299
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13:05: Volvo decides to go through Anklam (reader's hint)



Some people say, that in this moment he lost the competition cause of queues and jams on Usedom Island (no bridge in Świnoujście).

13:54: S3, works after an accident, like 50m long.



14:04:


14:23: Old A6/S3, they said it was like 0,5 km long, but I remember this old stretch were like 5 kms long.



14:24:


14:48:
DK3 near Wolin


14:50:



15:04:



15:12:
Golf is almost there:
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Old July 25th, 2013, 06:43 PM   #10300
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15:18: Volvo back in Poland:








16:04: Finnaly on board:







16:40: volvo finnaly there.

Volvo drove 588 kms consuming 40 litres of diesel (220 PLN = ca. 52 EUR) in 7h33m, Golf drove 456 kms consuming 31 litres (they had 2 bicycles hanging behing, 170 PLN = ca. 40 EUR) in 5h52m.
Well in my opinion driving through Ankam was a mistake, but this guy driving volvo was stopping like every hour, and golf stopped just one time.

Thanks for watching.
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