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Old October 24th, 2013, 01:13 PM   #10801
ka__zet
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Siac Construction, one of Ireland’s largest construction groups, is expected to seek the protection of the courts this week, possibly as early as today, as losses in Poland threaten the 100-year-old business.
Yeah, and I'm sure that Poland is the only reason, and Irish crisis didn't have anything to with it whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by John Maynard
Are there any Polish companies (not foreign owned) that are building motorways in Poland?
Plenty, but they are either part of consortium or subcontractors, I think.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 01:19 PM   #10802
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If half the (remaining) road building operations in Europe are tied up in the courts for years in Poland they will not be building roads in Poland. If they are not building them then who will??? Alpine Bau were serial suicide bidders but some very competent contractors lost heavily in Poland ( and nowhere else) , I am not including that Chinese company on the list of competent contractors either. .

Many large Polish contractors ( if not most) also went bankrupt in recent years , many of them over a motorway/expressway project somewhere in Poland not because of their other activities.

The contractor pool for future projects has undoubtedly diminished a lot, economics is part of that as the sector has retrenched a lot since 2005-2010. If Russia was Napoleons nemesis then GDDKiA is almost the equivalent of Russia for the EU Civil Engineering business.....but not quite.

As we have billions of €s potentially owed to existing and to bankrupt operators I am pretty sure that they will, between them, pick the best court case to progress first and I am pretty sure that GDDKiA cocked up and were obstructive somewhere in the past few years so that will be the first big case to progress. From what I hear that case will centre on very dodgy geotechnical work pre contract signing.

But until the cases are fully resolved, for or against GDDKiA, there is a €3bn contingent liability for the Polish state which may turn into a concrete €3bn liability depending. meanwhile GDDKiA will be occupied with these court cases and less time will be available in GDDKiA to progress new work.

Last edited by sponge_bob; October 24th, 2013 at 01:28 PM.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 01:39 PM   #10803
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Many large Polish contractors ( if not most) also went bankrupt in recent years , many of them over a motorway/expressway project somewhere in Poland not because of their other activities.
And many of them precisely because of their other activities, like careless acquisitions.

GDDKiA is far from being spotless and blameless (it is, after all, Polish beaurocracy), but those articles are not even pretenting to be objective.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 01:44 PM   #10804
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Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
strange, as far as I remember nobody put a gun to Mr. Finn Lyden's head to sign the contract. I just find this situation as a kind of excuse for stakeholders. it had been discussed over this thread last December. Surel got the point that time

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He did not persuade me. These kinds of excuses are always the same. Playing the political note to push things is typical. He just met tougher partner than he expected, if it were business business relation, he would have not much to do.

That technology transfer bullshit gives him away. Besides, it seems to me that the Polish motorways standards are higher than the Irish ones... well, happy cutting in half.

I would be on the side of contractors only if someone showed me that the contract would state that e.g. GDDKiA promised to provide with all the permits but during the construction failed to deliver them to the constructor, which could not build. If however in the contract is stated that the risk is on the side of the contractor and that not delivered permit doesn't mean he is not obliged to deliver, then it is very bad legal reading and bargaining on the contractor side when closing the contract. (but it is also nonsensical situation, nevertheless legally bulletproof).

I hope for the GDDKia to have the law on its side it this one.
this is business. Siac signed the contrac, then stepped back.

definately the question is not "why GDDKiA has got wrong attitude/wrong prcedures/wrong contract templates or anything else"

definately the question is why top managers of those companies (Alpin Bau, Siac) allow their companies to sign these contracts.

I find it this way: greedy for money. lets sign it now, worry later.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 01:48 PM   #10805
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post

...
Many large Polish contractors ( if not most) also went bankrupt in recent years , many of them over a motorway/expressway project somewhere in Poland not because of their other activities.

Th
how do you know that ? anyway read my post above.

I am very far away from holding GDDKiA's side. all I can see is that GDDKiA managers seem to be smarter than Alpin Bau or Sica ones.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 01:50 PM   #10806
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Originally Posted by ka__zet View Post
GDDKiA is far from being spotless and blameless (it is, after all, Polish beauracracy), but those articles are not even pretenting to be objective.
It does not matter whether you think they are objective or not.

You have 6 EU Ambassadors complaining ( TOGETHER ) that there is a discernible pattern of administrative malfeasance in GDDKiA and you have 10s of contractors ( who still exist and who have not disappeared) pooling their data to select the best court case to take against GDDKiA.

The result will be a massive slowdown as GDDKiA delegates a substantial portion of their staff/resources to defend against an avalanche of claims. I am not predicting how the claims will actually turn out in court, in the end, which is why I said "contingent liability" .

If GDDKiA loses all the claims they will add up to €3bn including interest and costs and the EU will not pay a single penny of that, the Polish taxpayer will.

But GDDKiA will be busy for the next 3 years defending the Polish taxpayer from the €3bn price tag, or at least I would expect them to be.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 01:56 PM   #10807
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Those companies fallen only because they thought that GDDKiA will do the same as they used to do (long after deadline? What fines? and You thought that this construction will cost less? No problem we will pay you more. and This bridge is gonna collapse after few years. Yeah that's no problem, you don't have to repair it at all) but things had changed.

So we can sleep well, GDDKiA won't have to pay a penny.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 02:04 PM   #10808
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So we can sleep well, GDDKiA won't have to pay a penny.
Yes but I would expect that proving all that will reduce high capacity road road building in Poland by anywhere up to 30-50% over the next 7 years as GDDKiA deal with the court cases outstanding.

If the first 3 high profile cases go badly (especially on geotechnical disclosure) the GDDKiA will turn into a cash cow for lawyers, not for contractors onsite building roads, and for the next 3 years or so.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 02:06 PM   #10809
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
...But GDDKiA will be busy for the next 3 years defending the Polish taxpayer from the €3bn price tag, or at least I would expect them to be.
interesting assumption...

what tells you that ? any procedure you base your opinion on ? your business/legal expierience ?
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Old October 24th, 2013, 02:10 PM   #10810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Yes but I would expect that proving all that will reduce high capacity road road building in Poland by anywhere up to 30-50% over the next 7 years as GDDKiA deal with the court cases outstanding.

If the first 3 high profile cases go badly (especially on geotechnical disclosure) the GDDKiA will turn into a cash cow for lawyers, not for contractors onsite building roads, and for the next 3 years or so.
Erm? Those companies singed contracts. They SHOULD read all of it + documentation. But wait they SHOULD new all of it in tender process. Damn, Europe is not USA, here you don't have to write that building in difficult terrain may be difficult and in some cases causes extra problems.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 02:17 PM   #10811
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Yes but I would expect that proving all that will reduce high capacity road road building in Poland by anywhere up to 30-50% over the next 7 years as GDDKiA deal with the court cases outstanding....

you have any algorithm to estimate consequences ? you did it in what ? 10 minutes ?

sorry for that, this almost killed me
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Old October 24th, 2013, 02:25 PM   #10812
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According to today's gddkia website the A4 motorway between Dębica Wschód (formerly called Dębica Pustynia) interchange and Rzeszów Północ interchange will open to traffic sometime before the 1st November This will hopefully remove a lot of transit traffic off the DK4 between Dębica and Rzeszów
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Old October 24th, 2013, 02:26 PM   #10813
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interesting assumption...

what tells you that ? any procedure you base your opinion on ? your business/legal expierience ?
Procedure means that a client has to be basically honest about the risks they know about with a potential contractor. These risks and the reports written about them should all be detailed in the tender documentation.

If you are CERTAIN that GDDKiA NEVER kept back ANY material information from any tenderer then the Polish taxpayer is completely safe.

If a single contractor anywhere in Europe can prove that a material piece of geotechnical data was deliberately withheld by GDDKiA at some stage during the tendering process, and that a tenderer asked for this information in a pre contract query, then all hell will break loose. I can guarantee that.

If the contractors can go further and prove there was a pattern of refusing to answer questions in order to hide material information that GDDKiA had in its possession then it will be even worse.

But perhaps GDDKiA were totally honest with everyone at all times and hopefully for the taxpayer they can prove that easily and quickly in court.

€3bn of Polish taxpayers money is €20bn of road building in Poland once the potential EU money is factored in. That is a lot of money. See where I got 30% now???

If GDDKiA were the most honest and principled state infrastructure procurer in Europe then Poland will get that €20bn over the next 7 years.

If not ???????????
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Old October 24th, 2013, 02:54 PM   #10814
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Dude, the problem is that only few companies got problem with GDDKiA. Most of them were thrown away from construction sites from many reasons. Yes I am sure that GDDKiA never deliberately withheld any technical data.
For example take Stawiski and Szczuczyn bypasses. Bot similar, bot on almost exact grounds and? Company on Szczuczyn ones was way behind and demanded from GDDKiA extra founds and extra time (and after analyse had been banned from construction site) while Stawiski bypass is... almost finished (problem with one construction but it will be repaired).
Those companies were greedy shit, that's whole secret.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 03:11 PM   #10815
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Originally Posted by Sasza View Post

Dude, the problem is that only few companies got problem with GDDKiA. Most of them were thrown away from construction sites from many reasons. Yes I am sure that GDDKiA never deliberately withheld any technical data.
Problems could come from companies who completed their contracts too.

All we really know is that companies from 6 different EU countries are organised enough to get their ambassadors involved collectively. We don't know what court cases are selected for early progression against GDDKiA and on what precise grounds.

If the first 3-5 high profile cases are largely thrown out then the rest will mainly collapse and the GDDKiA staff can go back designing and procuring roads instead of writing boring statements for the GDDKiA lawyers. The Polish taxpayer can chillax too.

My contacts have indicated that the high profile early court cases hinge on Geotechnical/ Disclosure issues. They worked for a company named on the last 2 pages of this thread.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #10816
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And you realize that those cases are "I tried to rob him but it failed and my company fallen so I demand compensation!"
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Old October 24th, 2013, 03:59 PM   #10817
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It's well known that all major construction companies active in Poland are in a bidding war to get contracts. It's also well known that many companies were making offers that were far below the GDDKiA estimates, not by a few percent, but sometimes as much as 30-50% below the project cost estimate.

Even when you win many contracts that way, it is not sustainable. You cannot exist when all your major biddings requires you to operate at a significant loss. It's a survival of the fittest. I wouldn't be surprised if more major construction companies go bankrupt over this.

It's also not GDDKiA's fault that many construction companies are willing to construct projects at a loss.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 04:01 PM   #10818
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I don't doubt that especially foreign construction companies are very active to get politics involved.
Those are our money (read EU)!!! We should have received them!! How do they dare to throw us out!!

And construction companies getting together to fight against GDDKiA is nothing but a try for collusion as they realized that with competition the fat profits are gone.

All in all I think that Polish motorway and expressway construction is one of the least corrupt in Europe and this mainly due to the high level of information openness. Criticizing GDDKiA for this seems crazy to me.

I don't know all the local details, but for me GDDKiA is a hero of public procurement, and I hope that the people working there are paid accordingly. I would be quite disappointed to learn otherwise in the future.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 04:04 PM   #10819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
....
My contacts have indicated that the high profile early court cases hinge on Geotechnical/ Disclosure issues. They worked for a company named on the last 2 pages of this thread.

well,
if it is serious, definately it is kept as confidential. all in all we are talking here about billions of euro.
now, if the stake is as much high I try to understand why you are informed as well.
two options:
a) you do belong to this group. if you belong to that strict group of people involved in preparing that case then it sounds unbeliavable you share your information here.
b) you do not belong to that group. if you do not, then the group is full of amateurs. they spread confidential information without care. amateurs are not harmful
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Old October 24th, 2013, 05:34 PM   #10820
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's well known that all major construction companies active in Poland are in a bidding war to get contracts. It's also well known that many companies were making offers that were far below the GDDKiA estimates, not by a few percent, but sometimes as much as 30-50% below the project cost estimate.

It's also not GDDKiA's fault that many construction companies are willing to construct projects at a loss.
The 'aggregate balance sheet defence', you need to hire a whole pile of accountants to make that case.

IE as work dried up in their own countries a load of companies that should have known better piled into Poland in 2009-2010 with suicide bids in order to keep their operations ticking over at least. Again it is best to show a pattern of behaviour.

Still you need at least 30 good accountants ( and a few economists ) to build that defence in a robust way and that will require time and money.
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