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Old October 26th, 2013, 11:20 AM   #10841
ChrisZwolle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleetz View Post
And letting courts decide is a bad thing since when? Of course courts should decide, who else? I feel like I am dreaming here, western European companies and journalists accuse Poland of not being corrupt enough? WTF?
That's surprising indeed. Perhaps they expected a banana republic where you can bribe officials.

Though I think the knowledge of western journalists is generally poor. I wonder how many of them have ever been to Poland. This summer there was a series of articles about gastarbeiters that work in the Netherlands, so the reporter went to Romania via Poland. First, he/she was surprised that Poland and Romania are actually very different (many ignorant Dutch think that everything "in the eastern block" is similarly poor). They were also surprised that people in Poland actually drive recent model cars, have fast internet and there are many motorways "of German quality" (I'd say the average Polish motorway is better than in Germany).
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Old October 26th, 2013, 11:38 AM   #10842
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/\ Sub-contractors should then sue those 'victims', and if the 'victims' can't pay then they should go into liquidation, simple as that.
So they (Sisk and/or Siac) have now gone into liquidation in Ireland. Do you think the Polish subcontractors will get anything back?

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Originally Posted by bleetz View Post
And letting courts decide is a bad thing since when? Of course courts should decide, who else? I feel like I am dreaming here, western European companies and journalists accuse Poland of not being corrupt enough? WTF?
Well, I am the last person to be an advocate of West European companies, but knowing Polish bureaucracy to some extent I can believe that the GDDKiA officials are scared of making decisions, which they may be held responsible for, so are leaving it to the courts.
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Old October 26th, 2013, 02:22 PM   #10843
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There is probably one more explanation of problems of some contractors http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...ostcount=10800

Lets look at SIAC Construction

"Siac Construction, one of Ireland’s largest construction groups, is expected to seek the protection of the courts this week, possibly as early as today, as losses in Poland threaten the 100-year-old business. (...)
The Siac group has operations in Ireland, Britain, Belgium, Canada and Poland and has approximately 560 employees. (...) Examinership is a process whereby a company or group of companies can get protection from its creditors while it seeks to put in place a viable plan for a business in difficulties.
Last year, the group cancelled a €400 million road project in Poland because of a dispute it was having with a local authority there. At the time, Siac chief executive Finn Lyden said the Polish road system was “a total and absolute mess and we felt we were better off out of it”.

He said the company was going seek damages of €22 million and make a complaint to the European Commission. (...) Siac also pulled out of Polish road-building projects last year citing delays and unexpected costs associated with the Polish roads authority, as did Irish firm Roadbridge.
Earlier this year, Siac reported profits of €5 million for 2012, with turnover having grown by 13 per cent to €230 million. In the period between 2008 and 2011, the proportion of the group’s activities outside Ireland grew to 60 per cent from 16 per cent.


My comments are as follows: a small local company was looking for a new market (since Irish construction market was rapidly dwindling), and it took on a new market a contract too big to finish it safely (compare contact value of €400 mln versus yearly turnover of €230 mln). The gamble did not pay, and now €22 milion of damages shall be paid
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Old October 26th, 2013, 02:46 PM   #10844
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So they (Sisk and/or Siac) have now gone into liquidation in Ireland. Do you think the Polish subcontractors will get anything back?
Not unless they get organised and appoint a lawyer in Ireland to deal with the Examiner. An Examiner is the person who restructures the debt that SIAC have ( Sisk are not in examinership at this time) and writes off a lot of the debt leaving SIAC alive to trade on.

Unless the Polish subbies have representation they may only get 1% of what they are owed, with representation maybe 20-30%.

They can look for the rest from the Polish courts if SIAC wins anything, eg look to freeze an award from the Polish courts to SIAC until they get paid in full first and let SIAC have what is left.

I think SIAC were the junior partner on that €400m contract and that PBG were the main contractor. When PBG went bust last year SIAC could not finance the hole PBG left.

Last edited by sponge_bob; October 26th, 2013 at 02:53 PM.
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Old October 26th, 2013, 03:36 PM   #10845
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Quote:
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I think SIAC were the junior partner on that €400m contract and that PBG were the main contractor. When PBG went bust last year SIAC could not finance the hole PBG left.
Well that's a business risk which every enterpreneur worth its salt has to be aware of. Partnerships among companies for big contracts are usually made to reduce risk but sometimes they can backfire. Expecting tax payer to cover in such case is nothing else but privatizing profits and socializing losses.
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Old October 26th, 2013, 06:43 PM   #10846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That's surprising indeed. Perhaps they expected a banana republic where you can bribe officials.
I think that corruption has many shapes, it's not only about outright bribing and I am quite sure that in this way defined corruption limits itself "edit:not" only to "banana" republics. And if you look at the way how this case is presented you notice it as well. "The outcry is mostly in these lines: we expected the same as we have at home."

If I look e.g. at the corruption in the CZ, the foreign companies lead by foreign managers are indeed quite often showing a corrupt behavior and if you look at their foreign headq. they don't consider it that bad. If you look at e.g. just recently changed German legislation about special foreign funds that companies could dispose for "special" purposes. The main difference in the corruption environment between countries is in its sophistication. I think that the very tight anti-corruption measures that were undertaken e.g. in Poland, but also in Slovakia, make it much more difficult to induce rent seeking and such similar measures are not necessarily always present in the WE countries as corruption is not such a huge public topic there due to the fact that it is much better hidden and more sophisticated, therefore there is not so big motivation from public for those measures.

just my two cents on it.
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Last edited by Surel; October 28th, 2013 at 05:16 PM. Reason: just read it second time and it did not make that much sense without that not
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Old October 27th, 2013, 11:06 PM   #10847
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del
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

Last edited by Urbanista1; October 28th, 2013 at 07:37 AM. Reason: repetitive
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Old October 28th, 2013, 01:29 PM   #10848
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Reply of GDDKiA to Reuters "news" (PL version only)

http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/a/13294/...nym-wykonawcom

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Konsekwentne stosowanie się Polski do zasad ustalonych przez Komisję Europejską zostało negatywnie ocenione w raporcie dwojga dziennikarzy piszących dla Agencji Reuters. Coś skrajnie odmiennego mówią natomiast kontrole Komisji Europejskiej, polskich instytucji kontrolnych czy raporty międzynarodowych firm doradczych. Polski rynek nie stwarza ograniczeń dla potencjalnych wykonawców zagranicznych - wynika z tegorocznego sprawozdania specjalnego Europejskiego Trybunału Obrachunkowego "Czy fundusze UE w ramach polityki spójności zostały dobrze wydane na drogi?", które przedstawia efekty kontroli 24 projektów drogowych współfinansowanych z funduszy UE w Polsce, Niemczech, Grecji i Hiszpanii. ETO przeprowadziło w GDDKIA 13 kontroli w ciągu ostatnich 5 lat. Wszystkie zakończyły się bez znaczących uwag.
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Old October 28th, 2013, 10:13 PM   #10849
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Old October 29th, 2013, 01:07 AM   #10850
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Alpine Bau
They also demanded more money in effect of war in Libya (yes, this anti-Gaddafi revolution from 2011)

PS
A4 Debica-Rzeszow to be opened this Wednesday, 4PM.
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Old October 29th, 2013, 10:55 AM   #10851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salto_angel View Post
Reply of GDDKiA to Reuters "news" (PL version only)

http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/a/13294/...nym-wykonawcom

English version : http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/a/13302/...nd-of-EU-Rules
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Old October 29th, 2013, 07:14 PM   #10852
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Progress on S17 between junction Jastków and junction Lublin Sławinek:


Quote:
September 2011:



February 2012:




April 2012:




October 2012:



April 2013:





June 2013:





September 2013:








http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/pl/a/13312/...ukonczeniu-S17
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Old October 30th, 2013, 01:20 PM   #10853
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Costs of construction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luki_SL View Post
Looking at this link, it came to a surprise for me when mentioned that Polish motorway construction was one of the most expensive in Europe. Even though, they are currently more expensive than German's ones.
Taking into consideration that Poland is quite a flat country, no tunnel have been built in my knowledge, almost half densely populated than Germany, prices of terrain and workforce lower thereto. Why is that?
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Old October 30th, 2013, 01:31 PM   #10854
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Originally posted by John Maynard: no tunnel have been built in my knowledge

The only tunnel constructed in Poland recently is the Laliki tunnel on the S69 between Żywiec and the border with Slovakia. Under construction right now is the road tunnel under the Vistula river in Gdańsk to connect the S7 southern bypass to the city's docks
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Old October 30th, 2013, 01:35 PM   #10855
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I think that remark was based on the extremely flawed study by the European Court of Auditors, who took a ridiculous small sample to prove that infrastructure in Poland and Spain is more expensive than in Germany.
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Old October 30th, 2013, 02:33 PM   #10856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I think that remark was based on the extremely flawed study by the European Court of Auditors, who took a ridiculous small sample to prove that infrastructure in Poland and Spain is more expensive than in Germany.
Then, what is the average cost of motorway/expressway construction per kilometer in Poland?
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Old October 30th, 2013, 02:43 PM   #10857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I think that remark was based on the extremely flawed study by the European Court of Auditors, who took a ridiculous small sample to prove that infrastructure in Poland and Spain is more expensive than in Germany.
Chris, haven't you calculated the average cost of the kilometers built in the last years in different countries in Europe?
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Old October 30th, 2013, 02:45 PM   #10858
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Then, what is the average cost of motorway/expressway construction per kilometer in Poland?
I can't tell for sure. You need a better sample than what the European Court of Auditors used. For example, the Spanish average motorway construction cost was based on 4 projects and was concluded to be € 7.8 million per kilometer. However, this "sample" contained one statistical outlier. If you would exclude that outlier, average construction cost of that sample was 50% lower.

In Germany, they examined the construction cost of 2 motorway projects with a combined length 16.3 km. Now, how can you conclude how expensive it is to construct a motorway in Germany based on the cost to construct 16 out of 12,500 kilometers of motorway (i.e. their conclusion was based on the construction cost of 0.13% of the network, including one of the cheapest motorways ever constructed in Germany - A20).

In Poland, they examined 3 motorway projects with a combined length of 41.8 km. Poland constructed over 1500 kilometers of motorway in the last couple of years.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; October 30th, 2013 at 03:18 PM. Reason: typo
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Old October 30th, 2013, 03:09 PM   #10859
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Poland came out well from the Auditors study...small as the sample size was.

The auditors were exercised about countries building motorway where expressway is enough and Poland will largely build only expressway from now on ....having mainly completed the motorways. The only planned motorway that the EU may not fund is the stretch to the Belarus border.

On balance Polish projects are rightsized not overspecified. Polish expressways are as good as motorways in many countries and better than some.
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Old October 30th, 2013, 04:19 PM   #10860
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A4 Debica - Rzeszow (37km) opens today:



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