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Old December 26th, 2013, 12:03 AM   #11261
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Originally Posted by javimix19 View Post
- Is the European Union financed a lot of motorways in Poland since 2004? Well, I know the answer, yes, but I want to know how many km are financed by EU. In Spain 40% of km of motorways between 1986 and 2013 were financed by EU money.
In Poland all motorways are EU funded, except for A2 Łódź - Warsaw (90kms) and, in the future, A1 Piotrków - Katowice (ca. 130 km).

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- Why there are tolls in the new motorways? I live in Spain, and all the motorways constructed since 1988, except a few motorways (financed by EU) haven't got tolls. Now majority of motorways in Spain are toll free.
Even with EU funding we can't afford new roads and maintenance without toll money. It's as simple as that.

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No such motorways are planned in Poland.
This is very important - we are not planning any redundant motorways as they did in Spain (like 5 ringroads of Madrid), ONLY really essential, basic stretches.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 12:15 AM   #11262
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… and just a bit more territory to cover than the Netherlands.
Yes. The way how cities are spread out over a country are a major factor in how long a motorway network needs to be to connect them all. Poland, Germany and Spain are examples of countries where the population is relatively evenly spread out throughout the country, requiring a large network to connect all cities with each other. On the other hand, countries like the United Kingdom, Italy or Switzerland can serve a large proportion of the cities with just a few corridors.

Poland has 40 cities with a population of over 100,000 people, so they need a large network - projected at circa 7,400 km - to connect them all, without going into the process of building multiple parallel motorways like they did in Portugal or Spain.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 11:05 AM   #11263
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in the future, A1 Piotrków - Katowice (ca. 130 km).
when will constructing of this section start?

whats the 700 kilometers to be launched next year? thanks.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 11:15 AM   #11264
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Yellow and orange roads are tendered, construction wil start in 2014.

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Old December 26th, 2013, 12:38 PM   #11265
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Originally Posted by Darhet View Post
As of December 2013, 1,491.4km of motorways are in use and 1,269 km of expressways are currently in use.Total length of highways (2x2; 3x2) in Poland- 2739,7 km
Still, our "network" does not have even a single closed loop

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Great progress but still a lot of work to be done. Im worried about the fact that the amount of motorways under construction is not really increasing.
The amount is decreasing because the motorways get finished and opened for traffic

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Originally Posted by javimix19 View Post
- Why there are tolls in the new motorways? I live in Spain, and all the motorways constructed since 1988, except a few motorways (financed by EU) haven't got tolls. Now majority of motorways in Spain are toll free.
Actually most motorways ("S" class) are not tolled for passenger vehicles. "A" class motorways are supposed to be tolled but it takes several years to launch the tolling system.
At the moment, there are only 6 tolled sections:
- A1 Gdańsk - Toruń
- A2 Rzepin - Poznań (junction A2xS5/S11)
- A2 Poznań (junction A2xS5) - Golina
- A2 Konin - Stryków
- A4 Wrocław - Gliwice
- A4 Mysłowice - Kraków

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Originally Posted by PLH View Post
In Poland all motorways are EU funded, except for A2 Łódź - Warsaw (90kms) and, in the future, A1 Piotrków - Katowice (ca. 130 km).
And of course EU doesn't cover 100% of the cost.


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Yellow and orange roads are tendered, construction wil start in 2014.
Since orange stretches are desing & build tenders, construction works will start in 2015.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 02:03 PM   #11266
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Still, our "network" does not have even a single closed loop
Exactly! It's more like a patchwork than a network. Even when all roads now under construction will be completed, there will still not be a single closed loop (of motorway/expressway roads). I guess about ten years from now, the set of motorways and expressways will be developed enough to call it a network. Anyway, great progress and keep it up!
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Old December 26th, 2013, 02:06 PM   #11267
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Even when all roads now under construction will be completed, there will still not be a single closed loop (of motorway/expressway roads).
I guess the first one will be A2 / A1 / S8 / A8 / A4 / S3 (Poznan - Lodz - Wroclaw).
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Old December 26th, 2013, 02:29 PM   #11268
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I guess the first one will be A2 / A1 / S8 / A8 / A4 / S3 (Poznan - Lodz - Wroclaw).
I guess the first closed loop might be A1/A2/S2/S8 (Piotrkow Trybunalski - Lodz - Warsaw). We'll see.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 02:31 PM   #11269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
I guess the first one will be A2 / A1 / S8 / A8 / A4 / S3 (Poznan - Lodz - Wroclaw).
Or the first international loop:

A4 - A1 - (Czech Republic) - D1 - R35 - R46 - D1 - R1 - D5 - (Germany) - A6 - A93 - A72 - A4

If they open the Mszana bridge

Also
A6 - S3 - A2 - (Germany) - A12 - A10 - A11 next summer.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 02:50 PM   #11270
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What about the violet? Is it part of project going to be started next year?
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Old December 26th, 2013, 02:55 PM   #11271
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What about the violet? Is it part of project going to be started next year?
It is a Design and Build project scheduled to be completed December 2015.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 03:10 PM   #11272
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Not every motorway is financed by EU. For example A1 Gdansk-Torun, A2 Slubice-Konin and A4 Katowice-Krakow were built ( or rebuilt ) by private companies.

A1 from Tuszyn to Katowice is also considered to be build in PPP.

As for Highways they are all co-financed by EU. Depending on importance and traffic significance EU funds 50% to 85% of the total cost.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 05:19 PM   #11273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Exactly! It's more like a patchwork than a network. Even when all roads now under construction will be completed, there will still not be a single closed loop (of motorway/expressway roads). I guess about ten years from now, the set of motorways and expressways will be developed enough to call it a network. Anyway, great progress and keep it up!
You can develop a loop fairly quickly, but I am not sure whether it is a good measure for success. In grid systems a loop develops quicker than in many other types of system, such as the radial systems of France and Spain or the spinal system of Italy.

Poland will eventually develop into something like a grid, but I would say that they did the right thing by first focusing on the East-West corridors and spur roads that have the biggest cities connected. Connectors between those East-West routes are a next stage. A1 and S8 would indeed be the stand-out candidates. Lots of work to do, but progress has been good indeed.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 06:00 PM   #11274
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You can develop a loop fairly quickly, but I am not sure whether it is a good measure for success.
I agree that a loop is not a good measure of success, but loops will be found in any well developed road system. The absence of loops is an indicator that success has not yet been reached. The presence of a loop leaves an open question regarding success.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 06:23 PM   #11275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Poland has 40 cities with a population of over 100,000 people, so they need a large network - projected at circa 7,400 km - to connect them all, without going into the process of building multiple parallel motorways like they did in Portugal or Spain.
ChrisZwolle, do you know that even these parallel motorways serve different destinations? If you look to A1, A29 and A32 (all in Porto metro Area) they run parallel. However, A1 is like a national distribution motorway, and A29 and A32 serve local destinations (they have much more exits than A1).
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Old December 26th, 2013, 07:31 PM   #11276
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I was actually thinking about this recently, and Poland doesn't have that much left to build to connect much of the country with reasonable roads.

Poznan-Wroclaw is probably the most important in terms of not having started construction yet. The Leszno-Stęszew section should also have been tendered this year, and I'm not sure why it hasn't been yet. Still, living in Poznan, it's now much easier to get to the other side of the country, even if it's via the not-great DK1 from Łódź to Katowice.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 09:10 PM   #11277
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I agree that a loop is not a good measure of success, but loops will be found in any well developed road system. The absence of loops is an indicator that success has not yet been reached. The presence of a loop leaves an open question regarding success.
The development of the Polish network in a way reminds me of what happened in Italy and the UK. The latter two focused on two large North-South axes and cross-connections allowing for loops involving the North-South axes only came later on (though of course, both of them had a big East-West route being the A4/M4). Poland has its East-West axes and there are no North-South axes yet that allowing for complete loops. In all three countries, the major cities mostly sit in straight lines, which does not quite invite to quickly build cross-connections if the axes in the middle serve most.

Surely Poland's network cannot be considered a success without at least two connections between the two, but it remains a part of the plan that is rightfully phase 2. As it was in countries like the UK, France and Italy, where they first built the biggest axes and only then started bothering about the connections allowing for interchanges between those axes. Where a motorway network is being constructed on that basis -because the demand for transportation can be serviced with two or three main corridors only-, lack of loop does not say as much about lack of success than it would in a country whose major population areas lay scattered. If French, Italian and British history is to repeat itself in Poland, the (longer-distance) loops will become available between 5 and 10 years after completion of the main East-West axes.
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Last edited by -Pino-; December 26th, 2013 at 10:07 PM.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 10:33 PM   #11278
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I don't think Britain and Italy are comparable to Poland because Britain is completely and Italy is mostly surrounded by water. Poland is mostly surrounded by land, which greatly impacts the nature of the road network. I think Germany would be a better example.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 11:18 PM   #11279
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I disagree. A motorway network is defined by the distribution of the population and merchandise. This explains the East-West focus in Poland. Merchandise comes from, and needs to be sent to, the West. One might argue that, as far as this is concerned, Poland is almost as much as a peninsula as Italy. The border crossings in the South are up and coming, but they will continue to lose out against those in the West, plus terrain is trickier there.

The densely populated regions are either on the A2 or on the A4. The exceptions Stettin and Gdansk are neatly connected to, again, the A2. This cannot be compared with Germany, where distribution of the population cannot be tied to a couple of corridors only. It is therefore hardly surprising that Germany built its motorway network as a grid. But it is one of the few European countries that did so, with most other countries opting for either main central axes or a spider web type of approach. It should not surprise anyone that Poland's route network is not developing like Germany's.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 11:23 PM   #11280
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Although east-west corridors had a slightly higher priority, the difference with north-south corridors is relatively small, within 5 years there will be 4 major north-south motorways/expressways (significantly) completed (A1, S3, S5 & S7).

I think it's a bit of western European stereotype that Poland needs routes towards the west the most. Poland has a large domestic market. The busiest corridor is Warszawa - Katowice, which is north-south.
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