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Old January 4th, 2014, 02:19 AM   #11301
Kanadzie
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Maybe he means Italy, part of Poland, near S2

I think PL drivers are best I have experienced, very courteous (even let you pass 3 on 2 lane road, always flash when there is hazard ahead, etc). all issues with safety are due to inadequate roads, and PL is building the good roads as fast as possible (except... where is my S 79 Warszawa -> Sandomierz -> Krakow?!)

for drunk, what can we do, it is illegal and we know better. Everywhere now and then a tragedy happens. it is really bad when politicians try to make hay with these. Look at that case in Texas, where drunk ran over some people, and was acquitted because lawyer argued "he is too rich so couldn't know better"

My favorite is the dashcam Youtube videos. You see Rossiyan ones always, cars are flying in the air and all kinds of insanity. Someone also put "polski drogi" video with Polish dashcam videos, nothing happens
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Old January 4th, 2014, 02:27 AM   #11302
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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
all issues with safety are due to inadequate roads,
Nope, speeding twice the limit (or more) through residential roads, notorious driving through red signals and pretty much complete disregard to pedestrians and cyclist are not due to inadequate roads.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 02:30 AM   #11303
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Nope, speeding twice the limit (or more) through residential roads, notorious driving through red signals and pretty much complete disregard to pedestrians and cyclist are not due to inadequate roads.
You have to admit that situation is not so bad. People walk outside and don't expect to die I am not sure how many drive through red signals. I live overseas but spent lots of driving, and I can't remember any (aside from passing on "expired yellow"). Not more that in US or Canada for example. But, at instant when the light turns green, Pole is already moving, else, horn!

I admit though, first time I was in Poland. I was only in the country for maybe two hours, and I am driving my rental car down I think DK 9. I see person waiting to cross street at marked crossing, so I start to stop (in Canada, must always stop for pedestrian in the crossing), there is truck behind me, the woman looks at me like I am crazy and does not dare move 1 cm
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Old January 4th, 2014, 02:51 AM   #11304
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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
You have to admit that situation is not so bad. People walk outside and don't expect to die
They also do not expect that anybody will yield to them, or that they will be safe on road crossing with green llight. This is not an optimal situation, to say the least

Quote:
I am not sure how many drive through red signals. I live overseas but spent lots of driving, and I can't remember any (aside from passing on "expired yellow"). Not more that in US or Canada for example.
"Late yellow" is red. Maybe it's not more than in US or Canada, but it is certainly more than in Western Europe.

Quote:
But, at instant when the light turns green, Pole is already moving, else, horn!
Well, it depends on region. In some parts of the country light turning green means "it's time to start remembering where the 1st gear is".


Quote:
I see person waiting to cross street at marked crossing, so I start to stop (in Canada, must always stop for pedestrian in the crossing), there is truck behind me, the woman looks at me like I am crazy and does not dare move 1 cm
Well, guess why. Or look at first 30s of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ro0rMSFCVc
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Old January 4th, 2014, 03:04 AM   #11305
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They also do not expect that anybody will yield to them, or that they will be safe on road crossing with green llight. This is not an optimal situation, to say the least
Well, guess why. Or look at first 30s of this video:
This is dangerous crossing design though. Nobody wants to run over old lady, but the area is very dark and so is her clothes. Stopped car should be obvious indication, but it's on the right lane...

Example, there are street lights in the median, but they are far from the crosswalk. Why not have one on edge of crossing, or even a "flashing yellow light" activated by the pedestrian that activates when she is crossing? The design of the road there is inviting accidents.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 11:39 AM   #11306
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I can add that, when I was in Poland last year, I got almot ran over by five cars (on pedestrian crossing ofcourse) in two days. This problem almsot dosent exist in Latvia anymore, thats the reason why I walked on the crossings so freely.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 12:52 PM   #11307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ka__zet View Post
Nope, speeding twice the limit (or more) through residential roads, notorious driving through red signals and pretty much complete disregard to pedestrians and cyclist are not due to inadequate roads.
I commute daily from Nowy Targ to Zabierzów. This is about 100 kilometres one way, drive to work around 5 am and go back after I'm finished at 3 pm. The first forty kilometres until the motorway starts it's single-carriageway droga krajowa, and yes, at five in the morning I often do double the speed limit through Klikuszowa and Skomielna Biała if the weather (visibility) and road conditions allow it. And I'm not the only one who does that on that time. On the way back, however, nobody drives more than 10 or 20 kilometres over through those towns because there are people on the sidewalks and lots of things that can cause a hazard...

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Originally Posted by ka__zet View Post
They also do not expect that anybody will yield to them, or that they will be safe on road crossing with green llight. This is not an optimal situation, to say the least
Yes, they do. How often I've seen people in villages crossing the roads, even not on zebra's, without paying the slightest attention to traffice is unbelievable. Really, the only places where people in general are scared of crossing even on a zebra are cities such as Warszawa. Even in Kraków pedestrians take the right of way. (Don't get me wrong, pedestrians have the right of way on a zebra, and I always stop for a zebra if it appears someone might want to cross it) - it's just not any behaviour that fits "scared of crossing".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka__zet View Post
"Late yellow" is red. Maybe it's not more than in US or Canada, but it is certainly more than in Western Europe.
Good to hear that you don't consider Germany to be part of Western Europe, because there it's even in the law that penalties for crossing on "late yellow" means getting a slap on the wrist, while crossing on "dark red" means getting the book thrown at you if they catch you doing it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
This is dangerous crossing design though. Nobody wants to run over old lady, but the area is very dark and so is her clothes. Stopped car should be obvious indication, but it's on the right lane...
I think this is actually the number one cause of accidents - people on villages walking alongside dark roads wearing dark clothes, or unlit cyclists on dark roads which you see far to late. I never really speed on unlit roads between nightfall and 1 or 2 am for exactly that reason, and even then I've had at least three incidents where someone was centimetres away from ending up on my hood with 60 or 80 km/h... Statistics seem to agree with this as well: heavily urbanized voivodeships such as Śląsk don't have death rates much higher than Western Europe, while rural voivodeships seem to be leading the pack at traffic deaths per 100 000 inhabitants.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 02:53 PM   #11308
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Accidents

1991: ~54 000
2011: 40 065
2012: 37 046
2013: 35 385

Killed

1991: ~8 000
2011: 4 189
2012: 3 571
2013: 3 291

Injuried:

2011: 49 501
2012: 45 792
2013: 43 471

Drunk drivers

2011: ~183 500
2012: ~171 000
2012: ~162 000

Road Controls:

2010: 2,1 mln
2012: 7,4 mln
2013: 8,9 mln
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Old January 4th, 2014, 07:49 PM   #11309
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The statistics have been improving because of the opening of new motorways and expressways.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 08:12 PM   #11310
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Poland has the third highest rate though (2012), after Lithuania and Romania. Greece used to be worse, but is now slightly better, perhaps due to reduced traffic volumes, in 2010 Greece had the worst traffic safety in the EU.
Thank you (for 2012 statistics). Mine were from 2011, and Poland was leading then in road fatalities, as you can see here: http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_s...fatal_2011.pdf

By the way, last statistics doesn't shows a significant difference between these 3 countries - It's nearly the same.
Still, PL has almost double the European average. In fact, you get more fatalities on Polish roads than in Germany - a country which has 2,5X more population and cars, is twice as densely populated.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 08:37 PM   #11311
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
That is a huge exaggeration. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but saying it's "commonly accepted" isn't true at all.
I don't think so, based on my personal experience of driving in Poland, and after talking with friends. By the way, the best thing to do is to have an overview from one's own perspective: go to any village along a DK, (but, also) DW road and you would notice that nobody is respecting the speed limit . If there is fewer traffic, you could even see vehicles overspeeding at more than 100km/h. Same in cities. Patently, I've seen many truck drivers not even slowing down when passing through agglomerations . Posted speed limits are only an option in Poland. So yes, it is IMHO, unfortunately, a widely spread practice.

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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
It is going to stop when more motorways and express way are built. It's as simple as that. Maybe not completely, but the scale will be much smaller.
Maybe, you might be right. However, I've found an article (three years old, but still actual) which blames the Poles "resisting rules" mentality, added with more powerful cars since 1989, as well the lack of enforcement: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/p...highway-safety.
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
At some point in the past someone decided it's ok for villages and towns to be built along the national roads.
Many main roads were built on old coach/postal roads, or roman roads which passed through towns and villages. Later on, with increase of motorized traffic, bypasses were possibly built.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
However, until travelling around takes waaay too much time than it should, people will be speeding. It's stupid, but time is money and no one wants to spend that time on the road.
To give you an example, on Friday afternoon a trip from Poznań to Wrocław (around 180 km) takes 3~3.5h. These are two biggest cities in Western Poland with sh*tload of people travelling between them.
I think, that in Poland road construction should be top priority by now. I can't understand, why many new urgent highways were cut from initial plans by government, as per example, S10 or S7, or delayed after 2020?
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Old January 4th, 2014, 09:24 PM   #11312
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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
I think, that in Poland road construction should be top priority by now. I can't understand, why many new urgent highways were cut from initial plans by government, as per example, S10 or S7, or delayed after 2020?
Because even in Poland we don't have an endless sack of money

Actually S7 seems to be one of the top priorities until 2020.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 09:29 PM   #11313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
.... driving at more than 100 km/h through villages or cities is just commonly accepted and widespread, completely ignoring the danger posed to pedestrians, children, old persons and other road users. ...


you are not from Poland, are you ? but you say it is commonly accepted. how do you know ? only Poles can say that or people who live there. definately not you.

you see, I am from Poland and I can assure it is not commonly accepted.

please think again before you post anything like that

I am not going to say that your post is a complete crap, but use correct meaning otherwords we all loose the subject of this thread, proving one another that black is back and white is white
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Old January 4th, 2014, 09:52 PM   #11314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
I think, that in Poland road construction should be top priority by now. I can't understand, why many new urgent highways were cut from initial plans by government, as per example, S10 or S7, or delayed after 2020?
It actually IS a top priority. It's true some projects were postponed. But is it really so hard to understand why? It's all about the money. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. Poland's not Norway. In fact, even in Norway - a super rich country, the infrastructure kinda sucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard
you would notice that nobody is respecting the speed limit
Only in the past 4 weeks I drove around 4000 km around the country. And I can assure you what you're saying is not true. I'm not saying everybody respects the speed limit, but it's not that nobody does it either.

No offence, but I get the impression you don't really have that much experience in driving in Poland. You obviously did, noticed all the stupidity on the roads that, I admit, is present. But you generalise too much and you tend not to see the whole picture.

To sum up: the situation is not perfect. There are many *******s on the roads and the statistics show it's worse than the European average.
However, the statistics also show that it's getting better. Much better than how it used to be in the past. It's a positive trend and once a proper motorway/express way network is finished it should get even better.
Complaining and expecting the situation to change immediately is stupid though. It takes years. Same as road construction. So let's wait few more years and see how it goes. I'm pretty sure there will be less accidents.

Another important thing to remember is that in the past 10 years the number of cars has increased a lot while the number of accidents was decreasing. Very positive thing imo.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 10:42 PM   #11315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Thank you (for 2012 statistics). Mine were from 2011, and Poland was leading then in road fatalities, as you can see here: http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_s...fatal_2011.pdf

By the way, last statistics doesn't shows a significant difference between these 3 countries - It's nearly the same.
Still, PL has almost double the European average. In fact, you get more fatalities on Polish roads than in Germany - a country which has 2,5X more population and cars, is twice as densely populated.
I've never driven in Poland so I cannot allow myself to judge how Polish drive.
But I'm sure accidents will drop when new expressways or highways will open, roundabouts will replace dangerous intersections, speed cameras everywhere (unfortunately), repressive drunk checking, expensive fines for aynything, etc....like in France for 15 years.
Same conclusion for any country.
Some differences will continue to exist.
When I see the map, I'm not surprised by the difference between Portugal and Spain, even if they are neighbours.
I think Spain more ... civilized, or with a better driving school. Sorry for P.
But I don't understand why Finland has a high fatality rate compared to scandinavian countries. Maybe because they have a russian inluence ?
When I read this forum, Estonia has no highways and has a best result on the road contrarily to Lithuania which has this kind of safety roads but with a bad result.
If someone can explain.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 10:48 PM   #11316
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I discovered today this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79qwkq9XF7E

I'm also not surprised by the high fatality on polish roads.

Some of them are completely dangerous and unconscious.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 10:50 PM   #11317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
Because even in Poland we don't have an endless sack of money

Actually S7 seems to be one of the top priorities until 2020.
Full S7, from Nowy Targ to Gdansk?
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Old January 4th, 2014, 11:05 PM   #11318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fane40 View Post
I discovered today this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79qwkq9XF7E

I'm also not surprised by the high fatality on polish roads.

Some of them are completely dangerous and unconscious.
That happens on Polish roads, but this is caused by crazy truck drivers from the Baltic states. Especially on route 61.

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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Full S7, from Nowy Targ to Gdansk?
From Kraków to Gdańsk. Nobody seems to have an idea where should possible new S7 Kraków- Myślenice be located.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 11:07 PM   #11319
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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
I don't think so, based on my personal experience of driving in Poland, and after talking with friends. By the way, the best thing to do is to have an overview from one's own perspective: go to any village along a DK, (but, also) DW road and you would notice that nobody is respecting the speed limit . If there is fewer traffic, you could even see vehicles overspeeding at more than 100km/h. Same in cities. Patently, I've seen many truck drivers not even slowing down when passing through agglomerations . Posted speed limits are only an option in Poland. So yes, it is IMHO, unfortunately, a widely spread practice.
WTF?
I like it so much, when someone uses words like nobody. That makes his statement so very "reliable"... Yes, of course, noone is respecting the speed limit. You were in Poland by car and managed to survive? It's a miracle, you should thank the Matka Boska Częstochowska, she's something Poles care about for sure, unlike the speed limits I guess.

As I said, you exaggerate very very much. If your words would be true, Poles would have extincted long time ago because of traffic accidents. And don't say one more time, that speeding in towns, cities and villages is commonly accepted. No person from my family or friend's circle accepts such thing, so as a Pole I can assure you, that it is not.
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Old January 5th, 2014, 12:43 AM   #11320
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I have to agree. Simply because you live in your country it doesn't mean you are the only expert and you are the only allowed to have an opinion on the subject. I lived for long time both in Poland and outside of Poland in different countries in Europe, Australia and North America and I have to tell you that before I left Poland I wasn't aware how badly and recklessly Poles drive. Why? Because I couldn't compare driving in Poland to driving in other countries. I was 100% sure I am an excellent driver.... till I moved abroad. My perception of driving and me as a driver changed drastically. I learned that there is no needs to be so aggressive on road (even though I was always convinced that I am very easy going guy), that better is to obey rules and not to think each time if that makes sense or not, that driving is simply getting from point A to point B instead of constant racing others....So, if you have been living in one country forever and have no clue how is anywhere else you will never have a chance to compare and it doesn't help you to find it out just by reading statistics or watching news on TV.
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