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Old January 19th, 2014, 11:33 AM   #11441
ChrisZwolle
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I don't think so either. If I'm correct the A4 project was tendered about 4 or 5 years ago.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 11:46 AM   #11442
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The bidding began in November 2009 and the contract was signed in September 2010.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 01:54 PM   #11443
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Also, many companies are not interested in finishing the construction (there were only 2 offers for A1 Toruń-Kowal, 3 for A4 Tarnów-Dębica, 3 for S5 Bojanowo-Rawicz).
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Old January 19th, 2014, 03:34 PM   #11444
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Probably because there are many "unknowns" with the construction quality of the previous constructor. You don't want to give a warranty on a road that may be of inferior quality due to a previous contractor.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 07:18 PM   #11445
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Tunnel under Martwa Wisła in Gdańsk









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Old January 21st, 2014, 09:12 PM   #11446
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I have read reports that some construction companies got bankrupt after winning road construction bids in Poland, I am wondering what are the costs of motorway construction in Poland?
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Old January 21st, 2014, 09:19 PM   #11447
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When starting the new tenders?
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Old January 21st, 2014, 09:48 PM   #11448
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When starting the new tenders?
Final price
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Old January 21st, 2014, 09:55 PM   #11449
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What do you mean?
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Old January 21st, 2014, 10:02 PM   #11450
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I have read reports that some construction companies got bankrupt after winning road construction bids in Poland
This is just an excuse these companies (Alpine Bau and some Irish ones) are making. They should blame themselves for offering impossible prices/not fulfilling the contracts, not the Polish road authority.

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I am wondering what are the costs of motorway construction in Poland?
See here
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Check here for full list: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=4637

Statistic made by Maya83

Example - contracts from 2010



The costs (per km) are in the last column, in PLN.

Last edited by Kemo; January 21st, 2014 at 10:13 PM.
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Old January 21st, 2014, 11:21 PM   #11451
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I have read reports that some construction companies got bankrupt after winning road construction bids in Poland, I am wondering what are the costs of motorway construction in Poland?
Basically, what happened in Poland was a classic example of how the constructors were scamming governments in Europe. They were offering ridiculously low bids to win the work, then trying to force the Polish road authority to give them more money to complete the work. It was quite lucrative for these companies - they would just threaten to walk away unless they got extra cash, and in most cases, they got the money.

Except in Poland, where the road authority was ready and waiting for them. They scrutinised everything, they made a point of checking the work thoroughly (and often discovering sub-standard work) - and they refused to give a single zloty more to the companies. The conditions were all loaded in favour of the road authority, and the construction companies were told to simply go to court if they had a problem.

The construction companies simply didn't expect this - the Irish company in question is well known to have been absolutely shocked that a 'developing' country could be so ruthless in business. I think the construction companies thought Poland would be an easy place to make money - and they were shocked to find otherwise.

The only downside is that Polish sub-contractors also went bankrupt, but given the level of corruption within the major companies (I've heard some really shocking stories about them that unfortunately can't be published on a public forum) - I'm not so sure it's a bad thing that they're all going to the wall.

Alpine were doing it all over Europe - I think Serbia had major issues with them doing exactly this?

On a related note, can anyone explain to me why on earth they built Bojanowo-Rawicz first? I drive Poznan-Wroclaw quite a bit, and it seems that the section in question is completely useless. A lot of traffic goes via Gostyn on DW434, so what's the point in building that section first? Getting the S5 in place south from Rawicz would have made life a lot easier - as it stands, I won't use the S5 because it's still much quicker to go S11-DW434-DK5 than DK5-S5-DK5!
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Old January 21st, 2014, 11:50 PM   #11452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
.....
Except in Poland, where the road authority was ready and waiting for them. They scrutinised everything, they made a point of checking the work thoroughly (and often discovering sub-standard work) - and they refused to give a single zloty more to the companies. The conditions were all loaded in favour of the road authority, and the construction companies were told to simply go to court if they had a problem.

The construction companies simply didn't expect this - the Irish company in question is well known to have been absolutely shocked that a 'developing' country could be so ruthless in business. I think the construction companies thought Poland would be an easy place to make money - and they were shocked to find otherwise...
correct.
a couple of months ago there was a wise guy here, who was sure Poland soon would come into serious troubles. according to him and his secret, very well informed collegues, the irish company we are talking about was about to build a strong coallition to sue GDDKiA.

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...
You have 6 EU Ambassadors complaining ( TOGETHER ) that there is a discernible pattern of administrative malfeasance in GDDKiA and you have 10s of contractors ( who still exist and who have not disappeared) pooling their data to select the best court case to take against GDDKiA.

The result will be a massive slowdown as GDDKiA delegates a substantial portion of their staff/resources to defend against an avalanche of claims. I am not predicting how the claims will actually turn out in court, in the end, which is why I said "contingent liability" .

If GDDKiA loses all the claims they will add up to €3bn including interest and costs and the EU will not pay a single penny of that, the Polish taxpayer will.

But GDDKiA will be busy for the next 3 years defending the Polish taxpayer from the €3bn price tag, or at least I would expect them to be.
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...
My contacts have indicated that the high profile early court cases hinge on Geotechnical/ Disclosure issues. They worked for a company named on the last 2 pages of this thread.
I am sorry, sponge_bob, now reading it again it sounds even more crazy. your revelations should be published at first page of a Brussels tabloid, not here.

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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
.....
...The only downside is that Polish sub-contractors also went bankrupt, but given the level of corruption within the major companies (I've heard some really shocking stories about them that unfortunately can't be published on a public forum) - I'm not so sure it's a bad thing that they're all going to the wall....
correct. it is a real pity. but this is business. you are free with your decisions. you did not estimate the risk and did not step out on time ? you are left with unpaid invoiced. sounds cruel, but true.
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 12:04 AM   #11453
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correct. a couple of months ago there was a wise guy here, who was sure Poland soon would come into serious troubles. according to him and his secret, very well informed collegues, the irish company we are talking about was about to build a strong coallition to sue GDDKiA.
I remember that, it was funny

The GDDKiA know fine well that there's no chance of these foreign companies getting a favourable judgement in the Polish courts, and Poland has way too much influence in the EU to fall victim to unfavourable judgements in EU-level judicial proceedings.

As I understand it, what was happening on a general level was that the GDDKiA were giving a certain amount of information and telling bidders that they could take it or leave it. They obviously thought that they could take it and then demand more money later - and the GDDKiA instead used every single trick in the book to delay/refuse payment. No wonder the construction companies were so upset - they probably never expected such behaviour from a governmental organisation.

The most beautiful thing of all is that construction companies will still want to do business here because Poland got so much money this time round - and I dare say that the GDDKiA has no intention of changing their ways.

I saw one complaint that said that it was unfair because the GDDKiA had ridiculously long payment terms while the subconstructors demanded payment within 7-14 days, leading to major cash flow issues. Sorry, big construction companies - but if you agree to long payment terms, then it's your problem.

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correct. it is a real pity. but this is business. you are free with your decisions. you did not estimate the risk and did not step out on time ? you are left with unpaid invoiced. sounds cruel, but true.
I completely agree. If they had any sense of perspective, they would have been well aware that many of these tenders were won for ridiculously low prices - and that any problems with construction would leave them in a serious mess with unpaid invoices.
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 12:58 AM   #11454
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It is unfortunate situation because of extra costs to Polish taxpayers and delays in work, but I am kind of proud GDDKiA did not fall into any traps

But that kind of "scam" seems so... clean. In Canada there is a big travail at the moment, as construction companies (for roads, etc) were paying money to people in the government and colluding with each other to drive prices for road construction way up. A few mayors of cities have been arrested and many have resigned in disgrace. The mayor of Montreal, 1.8 M population, in particular resigned in disgrace and his replacement was arrested by police for corruption Even the scams in Poland seem like not scams
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 02:52 AM   #11455
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I remember that, it was funny
It was supposed to be, some klutz had flown off the handle defending GDDKiA to the death a few posts ante that one.

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The GDDKiA know fine well that there's no chance of these foreign companies getting a favourable judgement in the Polish courts, and Poland has way too much influence in the EU to fall victim to unfavourable judgements in EU-level judicial proceedings.
We'll know that around 2018 won't we. It sort of does not matter what the Polish courts decide as these cases will all end up in the EU courts.

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As I understand it, what was happening on a general level was that the GDDKiA were giving a certain amount of information and telling bidders that they could take it or leave it.
That much is true but a roads procurement authority is expected to provide a reasonable level of disclosure on geotechnical conditions etc, we'll know in around 2018 or so whether GDDKiA played that one absolutely perfectly or whether the initial planning was considered to be substandard by wider EU norms. 10 EU ambassadors making the same complaint together is ...shall we say..unusual.

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The most beautiful thing of all is that construction companies will still want to do business here because Poland got so much money this time round - and I dare say that the GDDKiA has no intention of changing their ways.
GDDKiA can hardly change their ways at this moment in time. The cost would be immense. They are well dug in.

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I saw one complaint that said that it was unfair because the GDDKiA had ridiculously long payment terms while the subconstructors demanded payment within 7-14 days, leading to major cash flow issues. Sorry, big construction companies - but if you agree to long payment terms, then it's your problem.
Correct. Cash flow problems are not actionable when they are written into a
signed contract.

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If they had any sense of perspective, they would have been well aware that many of these tenders were won for ridiculously low prices - and that any problems with construction would leave them in a serious mess with unpaid invoices.
Subtended Suicide Bidding one could call it. Nevertheless the chaos caused by all these project collapses is quite severe and Poland has a very weak civil engineering sector as a consequence.

This is good for German companies of course. No pressure like!
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 03:09 AM   #11456
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I can see that Polish Road Authority has great PR department on this forum.

Of course there were cases where contractors were taking a mickey, especially Alpine and, to lesser degree, the Irish ones.
But, it is worth remembering that Irish state and companies were on their knees at that time so it was easy to kick them.
I would like to see if GDDKiA would be so strong towards some major German contractor

Preparations of the whole investment process on the side of GDDKiA is often shockingly bad with completely messed up geological research which creates extra costs and delays during the construction. Plots of land on route were often still in private hands at the start of construction.
The A4 is a string of delays after delays, many caused by bad initial designs.

Some procedures also take ages.

Also, GDDKiA is a political body with all the pros and cons.
Look at the treatment of the wretched Polimex. If they were Irish or, let say, Portuguese company they would be gone long time ago and construction of the A4 would be probably much more advanced.

Overall GDDKiA does a lot of good job but please don't exaggerate with all the superlatives. Reading it almost feel like poor Polish Road Authority stood up to all the devil contractors from all around the world.

Bloody John Wayne
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 03:17 AM   #11457
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Preparations of the whole investment process on the side of GDDKiA is often shockingly bad with completely messed up geological research which creates extra costs and delays during the construction.
This is what I keep hearing, substandard and downright misleading geotechnical work abounded. No answers or clarifications were ever provided to any queries on the geotechnical work.

Lets wait to see what the European Courts make of all this at some stage long removed in the future. Meanwhile crack on building roads, eh.

Quote:
Overall GDDKiA does a lot of good job but please don't exaggerate with all the superlatives. Reading it almost feel like poor Polish Road Authority stood up to all the devil contractors from all around the world.

Bloody John Wayne
Johnski Wayneski surely .
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 07:32 AM   #11458
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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
I saw one complaint that said that it was unfair because the GDDKiA had ridiculously long payment terms while the subconstructors demanded payment within 7-14 days, leading to major cash flow issues. Sorry, big construction companies - but if you agree to long payment terms, then it's your problem.
Banks offer revolving lines of credit to companies as a solution to exactly this sort of problem. The company only has to convince the bank that their capitalization and business practices are sound. It's a cost of doing business.
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Old January 24th, 2014, 02:01 PM   #11459
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Will the section Roza - Lodz Poludnie (S8) be opened in January?
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Old January 25th, 2014, 12:39 PM   #11460
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Will the section Roza - Lodz Poludnie (S8) be opened in January?
Yes, January 2014 is when the S8 between Róża and Łódż Południe is scheduled to be opened to traffic. Judging by the photos taken in November 2013 of this road on the Łódż gazeta website (thttp://lodz.gazeta.pl/lodz/1,35153,15049602,Pojechalismy_droga_ekspresowa_S8___FILM__ZDJECIA_.html) the roads looks to be completely finished and ready for use. It all depends on how quickly the permits needed for traffic to use the road are issued so I can't give you a definitive answer to your question
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