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Old March 2nd, 2014, 04:08 PM   #11581
John Maynard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deo View Post
Breslau? Wroclaw in English.
Well, still the correct English writing is with the Polish accents "Wrocław" and not "Wroclaw", so the alternate name "Breslau" is at least correct and far more convenient to write internationally without needing a Polish keyboard:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wroc%C5%82aw.
The same applies for, per example, Lodz or Gdansk, all are big cities; why the hell you people insist on Polish accents ?

On the other side, I could not imagine if International folks should write French names of big cities with French accents .
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 05:35 PM   #11582
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Because they represent different sounds
eg.
l = l but ł = w
o = o but ó = u
etc.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 05:54 PM   #11583
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Meh, I'll just say Wroclaw = "row" + "claw"

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Old March 2nd, 2014, 05:57 PM   #11584
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Polish placenames are impossible to pronounce somewhat correctly if you don't know some basics of the Polish language.

"wro-claw" is nothing remotely like how the city name is pronounced in Polish, which is closer to "vrots-waf". Łódź is nothing like "Lodz" or "Lots", but something like "Woodzh".

However, you can't be aware of how all city names in the world are pronounced. I assume Polish people won't bother if you write the city name without all the accents, which most non-Polish keyboards don't have. (Another option is to copy-paste it from Wikipedia or Google Earth, which is what I usually do).
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 09:37 PM   #11585
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@John_Maynard... If you wish to be polite... don't use the name "Breslau" when talking to Poles Similarly, not Auschwitz, but Oświęcim...
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 09:43 PM   #11586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macieii View Post
@John_Maynard... If you wish to be polite... don't use the name "Breslau" when talking to Poles Similarly, not Auschwitz, but Oświęcim...
Except for the unfortunate areas of that town, they stay German name
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 09:46 PM   #11587
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People here (Germans) seem all to use the German names
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 11:10 PM   #11588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macieii View Post
@John_Maynard... If you wish to be polite... don't use the name "Breslau" when talking to Poles Similarly, not Auschwitz, but Oświęcim...
According to you, is this being impolite than to write and spell, a big Polish city with a name easier to write and pronounce for foreigners that doesn't speak Polish?
By the way, "Breslau" is still used by many Germanic and Nordic countries (not only Germans), are they being impolite? Should they write and spell "Wrocław" instead, to make you feel happier .
If you are being correct and according so much importance for historical facts, you should stop to write and enunciate "Lwów" and "Wilno", but instead "Lviv" and "Vilnius", as it could be also impolite to Ukrainians and Lithuanians .
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 11:18 PM   #11589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
If you are being correct and according so much importance for historical facts, you should stop to write and enunciate "Lwów" and "Wilno", but instead "Lviv" and "Vilnius", as it could be also impolite to Ukrainians and Lithuanians .
Polska does!
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 11:22 PM   #11590
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 11:26 PM   #11591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
If you are being correct and according so much importance for historical facts, you should stop to write and enunciate "Lwów" and "Wilno", but instead "Lviv" and "Vilnius", as it could be also impolite to Ukrainians and Lithuanians .
I don't think it's a matter of politeness, but rather of language. When people talk about Wrocław in German, it's only right to call it Breslau, but we're having a discussion in English, so we should use English names. Most cities' names don't have English translations, so you should use their original names (or their latin transliteraion). So yeah, just because I'm Polish doesn't mean I should be calling Lviv "Lwów", Paris "Paryż" and Vienna "Wiedeń" when having a discussion on SSC...

Then again, who cares about language
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 11:38 PM   #11592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
According to you, is this being impolite than to write and spell, a big Polish city with a name easier to write and pronounce for foreigners that doesn't speak Polish?
By the way, "Breslau" is still used by many Germanic and Nordic countries (not only Germans), are they being impolite? Should they write and spell "Wrocław" instead, to make you feel happier .
If you are being correct and according so much importance for historical facts, you should stop to write and enunciate "Lwów" and "Wilno", but instead "Lviv" and "Vilnius", as it could be also impolite to Ukrainians and Lithuanians .

You truly don't understand any of the language using rules.
When you speak english, you have to use official english names, which are in most case current original names without diacritical marks (so Wroclaw in this case). If you use "Breslau" there's a chance some people even don't know which city you are talking about. Argument, that germanic languages use this name is stupid, or maybe I can use the chinese name of London in a discussion in spanish?
Using polish names of foreign cities (when speaking polish) is a different case. We also say Monachium, Nowy Jork, Rzym or Moskwa, because those are the names of these cities in polish. We also have nothing against using the names Breslau or Danzig when speaking german.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 11:46 PM   #11593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantiscum View Post
You truly don't understand any of the language using rules.
When you speak english, you have to use official english names, which are in most case current original names without diacritical marks (so Wroclaw in this case). If you use "Breslau" there's a chance some people even don't know which city you are talking about. Argument, that germanic languages use this name is stupid, or maybe I can use the chinese name of London in a discussion in spanish?
Using polish names of foreign cities (when speaking polish) is a different case. We also say Monachium, Nowy Jork, Rzym or Moskwa, because those are the names of these cities in polish. We also have nothing against using the names Breslau or Danzig when speaking german.
I think is you who doesn't know who to read .
Your argument does not hold, because "Wrocław" would be actually "chinese" for any Westerner who don't speak Polish .
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 12:06 AM   #11594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantiscum View Post
You truly don't understand any of the language using rules.
When you speak english, you have to use official english names, which are in most case current original names without diacritical marks (so Wroclaw in this case). If you use "Breslau" there's a chance some people even don't know which city you are talking about. Argument, that germanic languages use this name is stupid, or maybe I can use the chinese name of London in a discussion in spanish?
Using polish names of foreign cities (when speaking polish) is a different case. We also say Monachium, Nowy Jork, Rzym or Moskwa, because those are the names of these cities in polish. We also have nothing against using the names Breslau or Danzig when speaking german.
But English also has its names for cities... Prague, Warsaw and Vienna for example. Breslau was normal name for Wroclaw in English also, until... it became the inexplicable "łroł-klał" Wroclaw There is a town "Breslau" in Canada founded by some people from Wroclaw, but it didn't change name... anyway, best solution, do as my cousins in the Legnica area do, when hear mention of Wroclaw, spit on the floor and say how Krakow is better
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 12:47 AM   #11595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
According to you, is this being impolite than to write and spell, a big Polish city with a name easier to write and pronounce for foreigners that doesn't speak Polish?
By the way, "Breslau" is still used by many Germanic and Nordic countries (not only Germans), are they being impolite? Should they write and spell "Wrocław" instead, to make you feel happier .
If you are being correct and according so much importance for historical facts, you should stop to write and enunciate "Lwów" and "Wilno", but instead "Lviv" and "Vilnius", as it could be also impolite to Ukrainians and Lithuanians .
It's not about making me happier, it's about the connotations that these specific places and their names in German have in Polish minds, at least some of them. Similarly, Danzig. And I am just drawing your attention (i believe in a polite way) as you may not be aware of that... I could explain that to you via PM if you wish, as this is becoming a huge OT.

And yes, whenever I speak to Ukrainians or Lithuanians I use their names for these two particular cities (for quite similar reasons, btw). Whenever I speak to Germans, I also try to use their names... Munchen or even neutral Munich sounds much better than our Monachium, doesn't it ?

You can be arrogant, or you can at least try to be nice
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 01:42 PM   #11596
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Have any of the new road numbers (D9x) been spotted in the field yet?
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 02:43 PM   #11597
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Why so much fuss about how to pronounce Vratislav?
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 03:26 PM   #11598
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Back in Ireland, no sign of the written Supreme Court judgement from the GDDKia case yet and that judgement could take months to show up online.

Meanwhile.

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...-30053287.html

Quote:
In response to the six ambassadors' request for a joint meeting with Mr Piechocinski to discuss the road construction dilemma, the deputy prime minister instead offered to meet each ambassador individually. The six ambassadors replied stating that they would prefer a joint meeting. This received no response.

Five months later, on January 15, the Irish embassy and the other five embassies received a communique from the Polish ministry of economy, stating that workshops would be organised from mid March on Polish contractual law for experts and investors from the six represented EU countries.
Nothing really new there, it is just that the claims against GDDkia have not gone away either on a legal or separately on a diplomatic basis.

Refusing outright to meet 6 EU ambassadors, when they request a meeting, is not the done thing in Europe. None of the 6 will bother attending Mr Piechocinskis 'workshops' I would think.
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 03:42 PM   #11599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
I think is you who doesn't know who to read .
Your argument does not hold, because "Wrocław" would be actually "chinese" for any Westerner who don't speak Polish .
So what? First we are not talking about spoken language, so the pronunciation has nothing to do about it. And writing Wroclaw isn't that hard fo you, is it?
Second, you can't just use a different random language for a single word (and a city name is talking to you in english and suddenly he switches languages for some of the words because they are to hard for him to pronounce...

Oder vielleicht, angesichts der Tatsache, dass du die deutsche Sprache anscheinend weitgehend beherrscht hast, würdest du dich lieber mit mir auf deutsch unterhalten? Wenn du die deustchen Stadtnamen anstatt der englischen bevorzugst, dann würde ich vorschlagen, dass das gesamte Gespräch ausgerechnet in dieser Sprache und nicht auf englisch weitergeführt wird...
(So if you use the german city names instead of the english, than I think you speak this language very well and you would prefer speaking german, so we can continue this discussion in this language?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
But English also has its names for cities... Prague, Warsaw and Vienna for example. Breslau was normal name for Wroclaw in English also, until... it became the inexplicable "łroł-klał" Wroclaw There is a town "Breslau" in Canada founded by some people from Wroclaw, but it didn't change name... anyway, best solution, do as my cousins in the Legnica area do, when hear mention of Wroclaw, spit on the floor and say how Krakow is better
Of course english has some own names for major cities, but for those without a specific english name, english (and not only engish, for every other language we have the same rules) uses the actual official name of the city.

It has nothing to do with ideology, it's LANGUAGE RULES. Trust me, I'm a linguist.
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 03:58 PM   #11600
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Originally Posted by Dantiscum View Post
Of course english has some own names for major cities, but for those without a specific english name, english (and not only engish, for every other language we have the same rules) uses the actual official name of the city.
I would think that only around 10 European cities have a commonly used English name. Venice Warsaw Prague Copenhagen Rome Geneva and Vienna are some of the few and these names can be shared with the French on occasion.

Otherwise the convention in English is to use what the locals call the city, IE Wroclaw. Its not like I would use the name 'Aix en Chapelle' in an English language forum when discussing Autobahns either even though the name was widely used in ENGLISH up to the 1970s.
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