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Old March 6th, 2014, 09:07 PM   #11641
dexter2
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Łódź underground main train station construction (part of new city centre) update 2013:

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Old March 7th, 2014, 01:47 AM   #11642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Span is twice the size of Poland (nearly) and is not as important a transit country. Around 7500km would be about right for Poland.

Poland will pass out the UK by 2016 or so. The UK has what is easily the most miserable high speed network of all the major EU countries ( in terms of network size, economy and population) although it is generally free to use excepting some key bridges which are tolled and where network construction started in the 1950's.
It's true that UK under-invested in its roads in recent years.
However, many people forget that most of the UK's population is concentrated on an area not much larger than Netherlands, namely southern half of England.
You really don't need thousands of miles of motorways to connect major population centers.
What is needed is capacity, that's why UK has most of its motorways built to at least 2x3 profile.
UK will never have network as vast as geographically larger countries. It doesn't need it.

Poland has its population much more evenly spread around much larger area.
Also, in Poland you need good roads running from border to border as we are a transit country.
UK hardly needs high capacity roads to its remote corners.
There is no surprise that Poland needs much larger road network than UK.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 04:24 AM   #11643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Around 7500km would be about right for Poland.
In my opinion, Poland needs about 10,000km of motorways/expressways.

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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Poland will pass out the UK by 2016 or so. The UK has what is easily the most miserable high speed network of all the major EU countries....
England desperately needs the M31 which was planned in the 1970s. It would reduce many trips by more than 15 kilometers and would alleviate congestion on England's most congested motorways.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 11:12 AM   #11644
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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
In my opinion, Poland needs about 10,000km of motorways/expressways.
Why so? Here is the map of planned motorway&expressway network (in black) and four possible extensions marked in red based on my subjective judgement.

i.imgur . com / bmwX780 (SSC forbids me to post a link for some reason, sorry for inconvenience)

1. S16 Grudziądz - Olsztyn - Ełk (some sections east of Olsztyn already build in S standard) - ca. 280km
2. S5 Wrocław - CZ (+ link to Wałbrzych/S3) - ca. 115km + 75km =190km
3. Extension of S74 linking it with A1 and S8 - no idea, my guess would be 50-70km
4. BDI Bielsko Biała - Kraków (currently planned as upgraded 2x2 national road) - ca. 60km

Altogether - ca. 600km. 7500 currently planned +600=8100km. I can't really see space for another 2000km of A/S.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 01:43 PM   #11645
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Originally Posted by białek View Post
Why so? Here is the map of planned motorway&expressway network (in black) and four possible extensions marked in red based on my subjective judgement.
I believe all of the following would be reasonable to build before 2050:

S22 extension from Elblag to Kostrzyn nad Odra.
S79 from Warsaw to Gora Kalwaria to Kozienice to Zwolen to Lipsko to Ozarow to Sandomierz to Nowa Deba to Rzeszow.
Outer ring road of Warsaw at a roughly 40 to 50 kilometer radius i.e. roughly about 300 kilometer circumference.
S7 western bypass of Warsaw from Zakrochym to Pruszkow to Tarczyn.
New S route from Lublin (including southern bypass of Lublin) to Kielce (including southern bypass of Kielce) to Czestochowa (including southern bypass of Czestochowa) to Opole to Klodzko.
New S route from A4/A18 intersection to Leszno to A2/S5 intersection east of Poznan near Robakowa.
Northern bypass of Krakow (completing the ring).
New S route Zamocz to Janow Lubelski.
New S route Kielce to Tarnow (including western bypass of Tarnow) to Nowy Sacz (with a possible extension to the SK border in the direction of Presov).
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Old March 7th, 2014, 02:03 PM   #11646
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However, many people forget that most of the UK's population is concentrated on an area not much larger than Netherlands, namely southern half of England.
If you take the NE and NW of England they have a combined population of 20m and one motorway across the mountains in the south of the 2 regions. ( the M62) . Two blocks of 10m persons and one connecting motorway that is frequently almost impassable in winter.

It takes very little to knock out the UK network as it is not built for redundancy and the last significant piece of redundancy added was the M40 in the 1980s. Since then they have concentrated on missing links like in Scotland and the M3 downs section and very little of that even.

Only 2 short sections of Motorway are actually proposed and one is in Scotland between Glasgow and Edinburgh ...the biggest single new project ( and that is redundancy ) is the new Forth Bridge also in Scotland. The other short section is a small extension of the A1(M) in Yorkshire.

Poland will have the guts of 3 major north south and 3 major east west routes end to end by 2020 and will probably have full 4 x 4 by 2027. A much better grid.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 02:36 PM   #11647
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Poland will have the guts of 3 major north south and 3 major east west routes end to end by 2020 and will probably have full 4 x 4 by 2027. A much better grid.
As others have already mentioned, Britain is an island while Poland is along major international crossroads, so motorway network comparisons are apples-to-oranges. If the areas, populations, and population distributions for Britain and Poland were identical, the motorway network requirements would be significantly different.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 03:28 PM   #11648
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The comparison with the United Kingdom is not really relevant. Poland and the UK are vastly different in geography and demography.

The proposed 7,500 kilometer motorway network is pretty much a basic network that connects all large cities. This does not include motorways to rural areas, to small towns and large suburban motorway networks like Spain and Portugal have developed.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 03:58 PM   #11649
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Especially the commuter traffic is growing fast and together with suburbs growing will require greater rate of expansion of urban motorways.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 05:04 PM   #11650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
S22 extension from Elblag to Kostrzyn nad Odra.
This one runs through sparsely populated regions. Also it would be a duplicate of S6 and S5. Only the section Piła (S10) - Gorzów (S3) would make sense.

Quote:
S79 from Warsaw to Gora Kalwaria to Kozienice to Zwolen to Lipsko to Ozarow to Sandomierz to Nowa Deba to Rzeszow.
Superfluous duplicate of S7 and S17.

Quote:
Outer ring road of Warsaw at a roughly 40 to 50 kilometer radius i.e. roughly about 300 kilometer circumference.
It is too expensive to build such "outer ring" in motorway standard just for transit trucks. Modernisation of existing road (bypasses etc.) should handle the traffic.

Quote:
S7 western bypass of Warsaw from Zakrochym to Pruszkow to Tarczyn.
Science-fiction, there is a national park there.

Quote:
New S route from Lublin (including southern bypass of Lublin) to Kielce (including southern bypass of Kielce) to Czestochowa (including southern bypass of Czestochowa) to Opole to Klodzko.
This one is planned semi-officially.

Quote:
New S route from A4/A18 intersection to Leszno
Planned unofficially.
Quote:
to A2/S5 intersection east of Poznan near Robakowa.
Superfluous duplicate of S5.

Quote:
Northern bypass of Krakow (completing the ring).
There are even some chances that it will be build around 2020.

Quote:
New S route Zamocz to Janow Lubelski.
Superfluous.

Quote:
New S route Kielce to Tarnow (including western bypass of Tarnow) to Nowy Sacz (with a possible extension to the SK border in the direction of Presov).
Planned unofficially.

I would add two routes:
-"A4bis" - southern bypass of Silesian metropolis
- road connecting S8 near Zambrów/Ostrów Mazowiecka with S7 and S10 (forming route Białystok - Toruń)
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Old March 7th, 2014, 05:11 PM   #11651
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S46 Opole - Częstochowa. It could even go to Kielce or Jędrzejów.
S9 Radom - Rzeszów.
S52 Bielsko-Biała - Kraków

I actually think an outer beltway of Warszawa is a good idea. I don't mean it should be constructed in 2020 or so, but it will serve much more than just some transit traffic, it would also connect numerous sizable towns and small cities.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 05:24 PM   #11652
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In the meantime Polish regions are investing large amounts of money into "bicycle highways".

South-Eastern Poland will build 420 km of bicycle paths linking various towns and tourist attractions.

Malopolska region will build 673 km of bicycle "highways". In addition many special paths for skiers will also be created.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 05:31 PM   #11653
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When its possible to have all motorway from czech border near ostrava to warsaw?
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Old March 7th, 2014, 05:34 PM   #11654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
It is too expensive to build such "outer ring" in motorway standard just for transit trucks. Modernisation of existing road (bypasses etc.) should handle the traffic.
I want to draw your attention that such road already exists and is part of DK 50 and 62. It's called "Duża Obwodnica Warszawy" (Large Warsaw Bypass), or "Obwodnica Tranzytowa TIR" (TIR Transit Bypass) as it's compulsory for trucks to take this route; passing through Warsaw is forbidden. However, it's not a motorway, but mostly a normal 2X1 national road that often passes through towns and villages, though some improvements were made in many areas to bypass them. The total length is ∼329 km, and its radius is between 20 and 30 km of the city's limits.


SISKOM map of TIR Transit Warsaw Bypass.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 05:55 PM   #11655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The proposed 7,500 kilometer motorway network is pretty much a basic network that connects all large cities. This does not include motorways to rural areas, to small towns and large suburban motorway networks like Spain and Portugal have developed.
Nevertheless, it would be great if they finish this network before 2020 (I know, it's not very realistic though ).


Map of planned motorway and expressway network in Poland (Wikipedia).


Status as of end of year 2013 (Wikipedia).
Green: in operation; Red: in construction; Grey: planned.

As you can see on the image above, in most of "S" expressways planned, construction has not yet begun. But, "A" (tolled) motorways are nearly completion .
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Old March 7th, 2014, 06:02 PM   #11656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
I want to draw your attention that such road already exists and is part of DK 50 and 62. It's called "Duża Obwodnica Warszawy" (Large Warsaw Bypass), or "Obwodnica Tranzytowa TIR" (TIR Transit Bypass) as it's compulsory for trucks to take this route; passing through Warsaw is forbidden. However, it's not a motorway, but mostly a normal 2X1 national road that often passes through towns and villages, though some improvements were made in many areas to bypass them. The total length is ∼329 km, and its radius is between 20 and 30 km of the city's limits.
That's what I meant, upgrading this road to motorway standard is inadequate, because TIRs will be allowed to use S2/S8/(S17) Warsaw ringroad and it should easily handle the traffic than now goes through DK50/62.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 06:02 PM   #11657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
I want to draw your attention that such road already exists and is part of DK 50 and 62. It's called "Duża Obwodnica Warszawy" (Large Warsaw Bypass), or "Obwodnica Tranzytowa TIR" (TIR Transit Bypass) as it's compulsory for trucks to take this route; passing through Warsaw is forbidden. However, it's not a motorway, but mostly a normal 2X1 national road that often passes through towns and villages, though some improvements were made in many areas to bypass them. The total length is ∼329 km, and its radius is between 20 and 30 km of the city's limits.
The big problem with the Large Warsaw Bypass is that it runs through towns and villages. By about 2050 or so, it will probably have serious capacity problems, which is why I proposed an S-class expressway.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 06:05 PM   #11658
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That's what I meant, upgrading this road to motorway standard is inadequate, because TIRs will be allowed to use S2/S8/(S17) Warsaw ringroad and it should easily handle the traffic than now goes through DK50/62.
I think that allowing the long-distance truck traffic to use the S2/S8/S17 inner ring road would be a bad idea. I think it should continue to be kept well outside the Warsaw metropolitan area.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 06:17 PM   #11659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ufonut View Post
In the meantime Polish regions are investing large amounts of money into "bicycle highways".

South-Eastern Poland will build 420 km of bicycle paths linking various towns and tourist attractions.

Malopolska region will build 673 km of bicycle "highways". In addition many special paths for skiers will also be created.
It's a good idea, as I am myself a biking lover .

But, would be more logical if they concentrate their resources and efforts: first, to finish (or to start constructing ) much more important 2X2 roads and expressways between big cities (still none between the Capital and Gdansk, and Krakow ); second, to improve existing Voivodeship and local roads. Then they could eventually build such "bicycle highways" .
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Old March 7th, 2014, 06:31 PM   #11660
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The big problem with the Large Warsaw Bypass is that it runs through towns and villages. By about 2050 or so, it will probably have serious capacity problems, which is why I proposed an S-class expressway.
In 2050 we might as well be using personal flying devices instead of cars so it's hard to say if upgrade of DK50 will be needed
But for now, we simply cannot afford that.
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