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Old March 24th, 2014, 12:28 PM   #11741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bzbox View Post
How long is this bridge again?
Not very long.

Does anyone know why the infamous Mszana Bridge was deliberately designed to look VERY like the MUCH longer Millau Viaduct?? .....and which longer bridge was built faster too

Poland. ( baby Millau Viaduct)



France (the original Millau Viaduct)

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Old March 24th, 2014, 02:46 PM   #11742
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Well, maybe because company that won the tender in Millau didn't start to fight the investor. Alpine won 2 tenders to finish that bridge and 2 times thay said it's impossible to build. Fortunantely law was changed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bzbox View Post
How long is this bridge again?
380m







source: GDDKiA

by wawrzula


Last edited by MonteChristo; March 24th, 2014 at 03:11 PM.
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Old March 24th, 2014, 03:30 PM   #11743
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A4 (Zgorzelec-Krzyzowa)



S7 (Grójec-Białobrzegi)



Warszawa Południe (S2/S79)



source: GDDKiA

Torun-Most Zawackiej


by Mariusz Nasieniewski
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Old March 24th, 2014, 05:06 PM   #11744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonteChristo View Post
Well, maybe because company that won the tender in Millau didn't start to fight the investor. Alpine won 2 tenders to finish that bridge and 2 times thay said it's impossible to build. Fortunantely law was changed.
I know that it is popular opinion on Polish forum, that only Alpina screw and our superb and heroic road authority did everything well.

But the bridge had to be redesigned during the construction.

As who was guilty and how much, only time (and courts) will tell.
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Old March 24th, 2014, 05:11 PM   #11745
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The Mszana Bridge is not your average run-of-the-mill bridge. It is an extradosed bridge. They look like cable-stayed bridges, but the way forces are handled is different. Extradosed bridges are relatively rare. Furthermore, the bridge is located in a curve, which adds to the design complexity. While there are several smaller curved extradosed bridges (for example in Switzerland), I don't recall any curved extradosed motorway bridges.
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Old March 24th, 2014, 07:59 PM   #11746
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Also there is a smaller bridge connecting to it on one side, which adds to complexity. As far as I know it's the widest extradosed bridge in the world too and that's important -notice that the cables are only connected along the axis of the bridge.
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Old March 24th, 2014, 10:45 PM   #11747
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Expressway S3 Gorzów Wielkopolski - Zielona Góra


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Old March 25th, 2014, 05:17 AM   #11748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
Also there is a smaller bridge connecting to it on one side, which adds to complexity. As far as I know it's the widest extradosed bridge in the world too and that's important -notice that the cables are only connected along the axis of the bridge.
Poland also has the longest Extrados bridge (S2 width) in Europe , across the Vistula up north. It is not centre stayed though ( most Extrados bridges are side stayed or stayed off side pillars not centre pillars) and is not anywhere as seriously curved as the Mszana bridge.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 06:12 PM   #11749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The Mszana Bridge is not your average run-of-the-mill bridge. It is an extradosed bridge. They look like cable-stayed bridges, but the way forces are handled is different. Extradosed bridges are relatively rare. Furthermore, the bridge is located in a curve, which adds to the design complexity. While there are several smaller curved extradosed bridges (for example in Switzerland), I don't recall any curved extradosed motorway bridges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
Also there is a smaller bridge connecting to it on one side, which adds to complexity. As far as I know it's the widest extradosed bridge in the world too and that's important -notice that the cables are only connected along the axis of the bridge.
I'm all aware about peculiarities of this bridge.

The question is: was it really necessary to overcomplicate its design that way?

Here is construction of a much larger structure less than 50km to the north, over the same A1 motorway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K4r0lSz View Post
As you can see construction goes along quite nicely, no major drama or complication. Simple and easy structure rising fast.

I have quite strong view that Poland shouldn't be too extravagant with its bridges designs at this stage. We still have massive job to do just to fill the major gaps in our road network.
Once the core is done we can experiment with funky designs, preferably in urban areas where someone can actually admire them.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 06:28 PM   #11750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
I have quite strong view that Poland shouldn't be too extravagant with its bridges designs at this stage. We still have massive job to do just to fill the major gaps in our road network.
Once the core is done we can experiment with funky designs, preferably in urban areas where someone can actually admire them.
I think the eye-catching designs and colors of Poland's bridges are more important in rural areas where they help keep long-distance drivers awake and alert, though I like them in cities too.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 06:48 PM   #11751
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I think the eye-catching designs and colors of Poland's bridges are more important in rural areas where they help keep long-distance drivers awake and alert, though I like them in cities too.
Most people would probably prefer more cities connected by modern safe roads rather than eye-catching structures popping up everywhere.

Tell people in Koszalin or Suwalki that they have to wait for their S-roads but we have eye-catching bridge in Mszana or other village.

However, I think the GDDKiA practice is changing, on more recent projects (S8, S3) there are fewer eye-catching structures. Money talks
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Old March 25th, 2014, 08:28 PM   #11752
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I think it's not really about the bridges design but rather loong sound barriers especially on new stretch from Łódź to Warsaw. IMO in these projects are lost lot of money.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 08:55 PM   #11753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Most people would probably prefer more cities connected by modern safe roads rather than eye-catching structures popping up everywhere.

Tell people in Koszalin or Suwalki that they have to wait for their S-roads but we have eye-catching bridge in Mszana or other village.

However, I think the GDDKiA practice is changing, on more recent projects (S8, S3) there are fewer eye-catching structures. Money talks
The Mszana bridge is not representative of the many beautiful and reasonably-priced bridges that have been completed on schedule.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 01:05 AM   #11754
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that purple colour is really ugly...
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Old March 26th, 2014, 01:18 AM   #11755
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Originally Posted by i15 View Post
that purple colour is really ugly...
Each to their own taste but I like the purple colour. It is different and eye-catching
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Old March 26th, 2014, 01:27 AM   #11756
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It work pretty well with concrete.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 01:41 AM   #11757
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Come May when the bridge finally opens to traffic I doubt that people will be paying much attention to the purple. Drivers will just be relieved not to have to endure the current minor roads traffic has to use to avoid the Mszana bridge at the moment
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Old March 26th, 2014, 02:30 AM   #11758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
The Mszana bridge is not representative of the many beautiful and reasonably-priced bridges that have been completed on schedule.
I'm not saying that all funky bridges go as wrong or as expensive as the Mszana epic failure but I'm 98% sure the standard, boring, off-the-shelf, designs are cheaper, apart from some selected situations where topography justifies something unusual.

Even if construction materials (steel, concrete etc) don't always cost more such structures have to be individually designed practically from scratch. More manpower in the design office, then often challenging construction techniques, often individually designed temporary support structures etc. It all doesn't come cheap or free.

Standard post-tensed beam structures can be easily tweaked for most of the situation in mostly flat country like Poland.

I really like what they are doing on S8 from Wroclaw to Lodz. I can't think of any weird structure there but we are getting long continues stretch of great, well designed road instead.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 03:02 AM   #11759
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I don't want communist grey colours everywhere (like in Birmingham for example) so please keep the bright colours even if the structures are simplified and standardised a bit more.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 04:06 AM   #11760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i15 View Post
that purple colour is really ugly...
I quite like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
I'm not saying that all funky bridges go as wrong or as expensive as the Mszana epic failure but I'm 98% sure the standard, boring, off-the-shelf, designs are cheaper, apart from some selected situations where topography justifies something unusual.

Even if construction materials (steel, concrete etc) don't always cost more such structures have to be individually designed practically from scratch. More manpower in the design office, then often challenging construction techniques, often individually designed temporary support structures etc. It all doesn't come cheap or free.

Standard post-tensed beam structures can be easily tweaked for most of the situation in mostly flat country like Poland.
The unusual designs are also based on already solved solutions and can be tweaked in the same ways as more common and boring designs. I don't believe the cost difference (between an interesting design and a boring design) for the engineering is more than 0.01% of the total cost of the bridge, in most cases.
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