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Old May 8th, 2014, 02:28 PM   #11981
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Swina-Poreba area will eventually be flooded creating some picturesque driving experience.





















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Old May 8th, 2014, 04:43 PM   #11982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
1. There have been lots of safety improvements to DK roads.
2. I think the rate of construction of A-class and S-class roads in Poland is remarkably fast, though of course we would like it to be faster.
3. In most cases, the money spent converting DK roads to 2+1 would be wasted because traffic levels often already exceed the reasonable capacity of 2+1 roads.

In my opinion, the current allocation of available funds between safety improvements for DK roads and construction of new A-class and S-class roads is somewhere near optimal.
1. At last, these improvements are far from being optimal, because they are very few section of major DK were you can overtake safely (except marginal 2X2 sections outside cities). IMHO, enlarging the roads by creating 1,5-2 meters hard shoulders, like was done since a few year, create more harm than relief, as the "bad" driver thinks that the other road users will "for sure" go on the side of the road so he can pass at 200 km/h (as the picture above!). Of course, many fatal accidents happens when he won't except others not to comply with his principle or it's too late for doing so. The better and definitely safer option would have been to make them 2+1 with median barrier, so every one can overtake safely (including frustrated/aggressive drivers).

2. Some portion are priorities, like S8 Wroclaw-Warsaw that should be opened soon, but many others "S" roads were "forgotten", left with nearly no work, if no construction at all on them; except for some bypasses or major cities getaways, as per example, very important DK10 Warsaw-Stettin, S5 or even DK7 Gdansk-Krakow, which has very few portions of 2X2 "S" stretches.
For "A" roads is different, as they are in concession, mostly owned by private companies; and tolls are charged unlike "S" roads.
Also, most of "S" roads stretches are just an upgrade of existing DK roads, not new or parallel routes to them.


All what's in "gray" means planned, and therefore only 2 lanes DK roads exists with potential hazards, as described upward.
As of 2014, like you see, lot of work still has to be done .
Note that the construction (red) is concentrated mainly in S8 Wroclaw-Warsaw, and on finishing the completion of S3, while other important stretches are forsaken.

3. Well, this 2+1 upgrade, which is an "eco" solution, could have been done when they started to "improve" existing DK roads, it's means since a long time ago now; but certainly, it wasn't a political goal to save other peoples lives, nor to improve speed and comfort on DK, just for trucks so they can stop . What for all those hard shoulders - which are nearly never used - instead of a "relieving" safe third lane?
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Old May 8th, 2014, 09:18 PM   #11983
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Unfortunately, Google maps has an outdated satellite image of this section - it was when it was u/c - as the Google street view is anymore actual.

Hopefully, I've just drove this week on this portion: A few hundred meters before, the speed drop from 120 km/h to 90, and finally to 70 km/h; they are now many "slowdown bands" which are always uncomfortable to drive on, as they vibrate a lot your vehicle - it's also quite surprising to see them on a motorway!. After, you begin the "infamous" right turn - which arrows are now "flashing" and an extra white-red reflective layer was painted on the barrier - you are "ejected" to the opposite side of the turn (I was driving only 60 km/h and felt it!) at first hundred meters of the sharp turn, after, the roadway gently returns to the side of the turn. Already, police was awaiting for speeders "majówka" at the end of the turn . If the road was wet and "NORMAL" drivers were to pass on it at higher speed; lot of mechanics are already blinking .

Also, It's quite strange to see such a "thrifty" junction on such an important axis .
I'm driving thru this part few times a week and I didn't seen anyone having any problems going 80+km/h in this section. Even TIR's don't seem to have any problems there.

Maybe people in old cars are having problems there but for such a "dangerous" place there was no accident there so far and we had big rain, snow and freezing rain during that time.
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Old May 8th, 2014, 10:09 PM   #11984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
1. At last, these improvements are far from being optimal, because they are very few section of major DK were you can overtake safely (except marginal 2X2 sections outside cities). IMHO, enlarging the roads by creating 1,5-2 meters hard shoulders, like was done since a few year, create more harm than relief, as the "bad" driver thinks that the other road users will "for sure" go on the side of the road so he can pass at 200 km/h (as the picture above!). Of course, many fatal accidents happens when he won't except others not to comply with his principle or it's too late for doing so. The better and definitely safer option would have been to make them 2+1 with median barrier, so every one can overtake safely (including frustrated/aggressive drivers).

... certainly, it wasn't a political goal to save other peoples lives, nor to improve speed and comfort on DK, just for trucks so they can stop . What for all those hard shoulders - which are nearly never used - instead of a "relieving" safe third lane?
It is your hypothesis that 2+1 roads would improve safety more than the actual construction program. You cannot prove it and I cannot disprove it. We cannot even test your hypothesis. However, traffic fatalities have fallen markedly as the S-class roads have been built. Part of that is due to safer vehicles, but most of it is due to the (A-class and) S-class roads. Your accusation that political decision makers didn't care about other people's lives has no evidentiary basis.
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Old May 8th, 2014, 10:55 PM   #11985
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When is Lublin bypass completed?
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Old May 9th, 2014, 01:17 AM   #11986
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When is Lublin bypass completed?
Probably will be completed till the end of 2014 (November - December).
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Old May 9th, 2014, 01:33 AM   #11987
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what is wrong with passing on the three? it doesn't seem very dangerous in PL. If you did that in America, you'd die instantly, in Polish they do it all the time and, well, haven't died yet...
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Old May 9th, 2014, 12:04 PM   #11988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
It is your hypothesis that 2+1 roads would improve safety more than the actual construction program. You cannot prove it and I cannot disprove it. We cannot even test your hypothesis. However, traffic fatalities have fallen markedly as the S-class roads have been built. Part of that is due to safer vehicles, but most of it is due to the (A-class and) S-class roads.
At least you know some irony - "A" and "S" roads are lacking in most places in PL, even between major cities. And yes, you can prove my hypothesis by taking facts from other countries that conducted such 2+1 improvements; and it's not possible to have reliable data and comparison in Poland due to the very rareness of such roads. In fact, Sweden has built 13 meters wide major roads during the period of 1955-1980 (2x3,5m + 2x3m shoulders), so it's even better than what PL did recently and known there as "huge improvements" , it has some retard in this field. Unfortunately, similarly to PL they had high fatal crashes on these roads, mostly frontal collisions. Since 1997 (before PL started DK roads "improvement" and renovation), they've started a road safety program, known as "Vision zero" which consisted of road amelioration, that these 2+1 roads were the main issue. From then, road fatalities drastically shrunken on these "former DK style" roads and Sweden has become one of the country with the least road fatalities in the world, while PL remains one of the highest in UE.
Furthermore, here is an article of The Economist about Sweden "so few deaths on roads", read it you will learn something: http://www.economist.com/blogs/econo...st-explains-16

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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Your accusation that political decision makers didn't care about other people's lives has no evidentiary basis.
I'm not accusing anyone, just taking into consideration facts. At least, what you can say that many MP's are not showing "good examples" by driving like nuts.
As an example, this Polish MP driving more than 150 km/h in the center of Warsaw, not stopping at red light and parking illegally, all in one ride: http://www.microsofttranslator.com/b...,217279,1.html
And they are lots of politics driving "examples" in Google.

Nor, when Polish Euro MP "defend" massive speeders, arguing that they should only pay little fines and have no other sanction, even in the most extreme cases, while being himself a huge speeder ; which in many Western European country would have mean you are fired from your position and immunity is over :

In Polish.
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Old May 9th, 2014, 01:04 PM   #11989
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Furthermore, here is an article of The Economist about Sweden "so few deaths on roads", read it you will learn something: http://www.economist.com/blogs/econo...st-explains-16
Not only does the Economist article not prove your case, it doesn't even support your case.
1. The reduction of road deaths attributed to Sweden's conversion of roads to 2+1 is 145 over a ten year period or 14.5 per year. That's a small fraction of the overall reduction of road deaths in Sweden, so other factors were more effective.
2. No information is given about what that cost (or would cost in Poland) compared to other improvements (such as more S-class roads, for example) that could be built with the same money.
3. There is no comparison between the Sweden 2+1 conversion program and the safety improvements which have been made to Polish DK roads.

The question is: Given a budget, how can the money most effectively be spent to reduce traffic deaths? The Economist article doesn't even begin to answer that question.

Show us a proper research study, with properly defined independent variables, a statistically significant data set, conducted in conformance with accepted standards of econometric methodology, and published in a peer-reviewed journal. Then we'll have something to talk about. All we have so far is some hand waving.
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Old May 9th, 2014, 02:59 PM   #11990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
what is wrong with passing on the three? it doesn't seem very dangerous in PL. If you did that in America, you'd die instantly, in Polish they do it all the time and, well, haven't died yet...
Unless they are the ones who died and contributed to Polish high road fatality count.
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Old May 9th, 2014, 05:38 PM   #11991
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The highest risk places to overtake on single carriageways are at intersections. That's why Poland has been installing separation barriers to prevent overtaking and head-on collisions at intersections along DK roads. I suspect that this is probably more cost-effective in terms of reducing traffic fatalities than conversion to 2+1 would be because many times more kilometers of road can be upgraded for the same cost.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 01:36 AM   #11992
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Unless they are the ones who died and contributed to Polish high road fatality count.
Perhaps, but you see people doing it, and you do it and you see no crash. In other places, maybe not 100 % chance of a crash, but 9 times on 10 would be a crash. In PL, maybe there is a crash 0.001 % of time, probably even much less than that.

I can't imagine how the 2+1 conversion would help anything though. Just to get the necessary purchase of right of way, and the relatively large work to do (would need to rebuild entire roadbed as usually the roadbed is in poor shape to start with, and then you have trees, houses, etc) would take same as the S road construction that is typically happening on the same road anyway.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 03:49 AM   #11993
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New section of Aleja Solidarności (signed green/black line on the map): - west access to Lublin bypass :



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Widok z wiaduktu na ul Głównej w stronę Kurowa











I w strone Lublina drogi serwisowe juz czarne



I dalej w strone Lublina









W strone kurowa



W strone miasta





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Old May 10th, 2014, 10:31 AM   #11994
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It seems that Lublin is getting a major infrastructure update, not only with the new bypass, but also all the spokes from the city to the bypass.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 12:06 PM   #11995
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When will DTŚ from Zabrze to A1 open to traffic? One of the deadlines I've read was May 2014.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 12:38 PM   #11996
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It should be open on August 2014 or later.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 01:26 PM   #11997
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What would be the most ideal length of motorways/expressways in Poland? If money was not an issue.

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Old May 10th, 2014, 02:02 PM   #11998
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What would be the most ideal length of motorways/expressways in Poland? If money was not an issue.
Money is always an issue because resources are never unlimited. However, if Poland could have unlimited motorways/expressways at zero cost, the optimum would be greater than 100,000 kilometers.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 02:05 PM   #11999
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It would take around 7,500 - 8,000 kilometers of A/S roads to create a network that connects all larger cities. Poland is a decentralized country (similar to Germany and Spain) and therefor requires a fairly large motorway network to serve all population centers.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 02:17 PM   #12000
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It would take around 7,500 - 8,000 kilometers of A/S roads to create a network that connects all larger cities.
Currently ~7500km are planned, but there will still be some fairly large cities without access to the network (for example Płock, which is a major industry center and has ~125k citizens). Still it'll take a long time before we reach this goal.
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