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Old August 5th, 2014, 08:22 PM   #12321
Capt.Vimes
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There are more expressways planned in Poland than motorways. Is this related only with construction costs or is there some other reason?
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Old August 5th, 2014, 11:17 PM   #12322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris80678 View Post
So has Łask (DK12) to Róża (S14) opened yet?
Opening on Friday! http://lodz.gazeta.pl/lodz/1,35136,1...y_odcinek.html
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Old August 5th, 2014, 11:18 PM   #12323
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Originally Posted by Capt.Vimes View Post
There are more expressways planned in Poland than motorways. Is this related only with construction costs or is there some other reason?
Basically, there is no differences between them, except half profile expressway but there is just few and ultimately only S22. That`s why the price is similar, sometimes expressway is more expensive than motorway.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 12:25 AM   #12324
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^
True. Briefly: polish expressways are like motorways just most of them are built along existing road alignment, they have a bit narrower lanes and shorter distances between exits and one more thing they are free for car drivers...
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Old August 6th, 2014, 01:09 AM   #12325
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will it follow line of Berlinka?
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Old August 6th, 2014, 10:29 AM   #12326
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As a driver, it is difficult to see any design differences between motorways and expressways in Poland. Expressways have a speed limit of 120 km/h, similar to motorways in several other countries in Europe, sometimes even higher.

The distance between exits is not something that should dictate whether a motorway has motorway or expressway status. Nobody cares about that.

Most of Poland is fairly flat, so motorways have generally very high design standards in terms of geometry, often better than motorways in mountainous countries. But this doesn't mean expressways are inferior.

The differences in cost can be attributed to setting, it's not strange that S2 in Warsaw costs much more than a motorway through rural flat terrain.

They should scrap the expressway status, and upgrade all 2x2 S-roads to A-status and use class GP for super two S-roads.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 11:00 AM   #12327
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I've said it before, but the S-designation is important in distinguishing tolled roads to non-tolled roads. In theory, all A-class roads should be tolled - yes, for political purposes, some aren't, but the original plan was for them all to be tolled.

The S-class roads also allows them to build lower quality roads while still showing that the road is limited access/etc. In theory, it also means that further cheaper single carriageway S-class roads can be built when there's no demand for a full motorway.

The final thing - the expressway tag also prohibits certain types of traffic automatically without having to mess around with endless extra signs. The S11 near Poznan is an excellent example of this - it's nowhere near suitable for A status, but making it GP-class would also involve endless extra signs to ban undesired traffic.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 11:12 AM   #12328
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Examples like S11 show an unrealistic desire to have the highest possible design for A-status roads at all times.

There are thousands of kilometers of motorway in Europe that are designed inferior to A-status motorways in Poland. Every country has substandard motorways. One can't have an utopian highway network where everything conforms to the highest design standards
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Old August 6th, 2014, 11:40 AM   #12329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
As a driver, it is difficult to see any design differences between motorways and expressways in Poland. Expressways have a speed limit of 120 km/h, similar to motorways in several other countries in Europe, sometimes even higher.

The distance between exits is not something that should dictate whether a motorway has motorway or expressway status. Nobody cares about that.

Most of Poland is fairly flat, so motorways have generally very high design standards in terms of geometry, often better than motorways in mountainous countries. But this doesn't mean expressways are inferior.

The differences in cost can be attributed to setting, it's not strange that S2 in Warsaw costs much more than a motorway through rural flat terrain.
I agree with all the points above, but I do not see how the conclusion below follows. The increased lane width and straighter geometry of A-class roads relative to S-class roads justifies the higher speed limits and, in my opinion, the different classification. I think the tolling is irrelevant to the classification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
They should scrap the expressway status, and upgrade all 2x2 S-roads to A-status and use class GP for super two S-roads.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 11:50 AM   #12330
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Class GP is similar to an expressway in many countries. For example, a Swedish motortrafikled, or a Dutch autoweg, or a Swiss Autostrasse

The Polish expressway is more reminiscent of a motorway in other countries.

Classs GP allows more flexible design standards, a typical item of expressways in other countries. Most 2x2 S-roads in Poland are just de-facto motorways with expressway status.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 12:16 PM   #12331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Class GP is similar to an expressway in many countries. For example, a Swedish motortrafikled, or a Dutch autoweg, or a Swiss Autostrasse

The Polish expressway is more reminiscent of a motorway in other countries.

Classs GP allows more flexible design standards, a typical item of expressways in other countries. Most 2x2 S-roads in Poland are just de-facto motorways with expressway status.
Do you think Poland's taxonomy of roads is too complex? You think that three classes of dual carriageway roads is too many?

Would I be correct in understanding that the main difference between S-class and GP-class roads is that S-class roads are limited-access and GP-class roads allow all vehicles?

BTW, I would favor no speed limit on A-class roads from sunrise to sunset whenever the road is dry. I would be reluctant to favor such a rule for S-class roads.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 12:49 PM   #12332
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There's nothing wrong with the concept of an expressway. It's suitable for short links or bypass routes that are not connected to the main network.

However, a majority of the main national motorway network in Poland will be composed of expressways which look like motorways. Which means long-distance traffic in Poland is handled through expressways rather than motorways like in most other countries.

Furthermore, motorway status does not require a 120+ km/h speed limit all the time. Practically all European countries have motorways with reduced speed limits in urban areas or in mountainous terrain.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 01:31 PM   #12333
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What is a GP class road? What does GP stand for?
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Old August 6th, 2014, 01:39 PM   #12334
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droga główna ruchu przyspieszonego

It's a higher standard road than usual, varying from decent two-lane bypasses to motorway-like roads with narrow shoulders.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 02:45 PM   #12335
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Basic standards for A and S roads can be find here:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostr...try_techniczne
and here is comparison for GP roads:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droga_klasy_GP

And I must agree with ChrisZwolle that motorway and expressway standards in Poland are exaggerated. Motorways have so great parameters that they should have no maximum speed limit with suggested max at 130 km/h while expressways should allow 130 km/h maximum with suggested 110 km/h as some of them mostly on adapted old sections and in hilly terrain have sharper curves. And yet despite that there are and will be build more roads grade separated with highest GP standards which basically should allow 110 km/h (perfect for motorway) yet due to occupancy of motorway and expressway standards they will allow only 100 km/h and if someone decide to unify standard may be lowered to 90 km/h. This wouldn’t have happened if at the beginning A roads would received more moderate standards and whole nationwide network would be build to that while expressways leaved as they should be for infill roads... .
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Old August 6th, 2014, 03:38 PM   #12336
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I think that Polish network of motorways and expressways is going to be similar as in Germany in the next 15 years .Many motorways and expressways are going to be build and they will be everywhere.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 03:55 PM   #12337
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It won't be, rather sth like 60%-65% of German network density.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 04:02 PM   #12338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
will it follow line of Berlinka?
Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post

And I must agree with ChrisZwolle that motorway and expressway standards in Poland are exaggerated.
Motorways there are not for sure. It`s common standard: 2x(2x3,75m main line + 3m shoulder). I heard that in Germany and Bulgaria some motorways have higher standard: 2x(2x4m (or 3x4m) main line + 3,5m shoulder).
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Old August 6th, 2014, 04:03 PM   #12339
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Lane width is mostly important for trucks. Whether a lane is 3.5 or 3.7 meters wide doesn't make much difference for cars, you can safely drive 130 km/h on either.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 04:30 PM   #12340
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The situation is similar to Spanish autopista and autovia.

The problem in Poland is that on many maps (incl. Google Maps) the expressways are marked just like normal, single-carriageway national roads, rather than motorways. This can confuse foreign drivers and suggest that Poland has a much poorer road network than it actually has.

If it was up to me, I'd make them both motorways and only put speed limits on those roads that cannot handle 140 km/h.
I'd would be far less confusing and you could also simplify the ridiculous sign you see when you drive into Poland, i.e. this:
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