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Old August 6th, 2014, 04:36 PM   #12341
mcarling
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There's nothing wrong with the concept of an expressway. It's suitable for short links or bypass routes that are not connected to the main network.

However, a majority of the main national motorway network in Poland will be composed of expressways which look like motorways. Which means long-distance traffic in Poland is handled through expressways rather than motorways like in most other countries.
Yes, but so what?

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Furthermore, motorway status does not require a 120+ km/h speed limit all the time. Practically all European countries have motorways with reduced speed limits in urban areas or in mountainous terrain.
Again, yes, but so what? How is this in any way an argument against Poland's current road taxonomy?

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Lane width is mostly important for trucks. Whether a lane is 3.5 or 3.7 meters wide doesn't make much difference for cars, you can safely drive 130 km/h on either.
Safe speed depends on many factors including vehicle design, vehicle condition, driver skill, driver condition, road condition, weather conditions, lighting conditions, etc. The maximum safe speed (alternatively, the risk to others from a vehicle losing control) for any combination of the above will always be higher for an otherwise equal road with 3.75 meter wide lanes than for one with 3.5 meter wide lanes.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 04:46 PM   #12342
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There is no point in classifying a road as an expressway while it is in fact a motorway in everything except official status. All long-distance expressways in Poland could be motorways, including urban bypasses. It makes little sense to have S2 around Warsaw while the rest of the route is A2, both are high-standard, multilane, divided, controlled-access highways. There is no need to downgrade a road from motorway to expressway just because it has a higher frequency of exits, or a slightly lower speed limit.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 04:52 PM   #12343
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DK41/46 Nysa

The contracts were signed for the construction of the bypass of Nysa.

* 7.4 km 2x2 DK46
* 9.1 km 2+1 DK41

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Old August 6th, 2014, 05:37 PM   #12344
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The problem in Poland is that on many maps (incl. Google Maps) the expressways are marked just like normal, single-carriageway national roads, rather than motorways. This can confuse foreign drivers and suggest that Poland has a much poorer road network than it actually has.
Changing the classification because the maps are broken doesn't make sense to me. Fix the maps.

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There is no point in classifying a road as an expressway while it is in fact a motorway in everything except official status. All long-distance expressways in Poland could be motorways, including urban bypasses. It makes little sense to have S2 around Warsaw while the rest of the route is A2, both are high-standard, multilane, divided, controlled-access highways. There is no need to downgrade a road from motorway to expressway just because it has a higher frequency of exits, or a slightly lower speed limit.
I agree that the frequency of exits is not important. I think the lane width and road geometry are important and do justify different road classification.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 06:07 PM   #12345
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Changing the classification because the maps are broken doesn't make sense to me. Fix the maps.
That wasn't really my point. Of course if something should be changed in the first place, it'd be the maps for sure.

But the distinction between motorways and expressways is confusing. Ask an average Pole what the speed limit on each road is and I'm sure most will be confused. Many won't even know which one is which.

It's not, of course, the most important issue to address regarding Polish roads, but changing the current situation should be considered.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 06:10 PM   #12346
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If one would project the Polish standards on foreign motorways, many motorways would become expressways, just look at Italy, Switzerland or even Germany.

If put in another way; what is the benefit to road users by having motorways classified as expressways?

One could argue a more lenient standard of motorway design would come in handy in mountainous terrain. But Poland is nearly uniformly flat, so I don't see the huge benefit of having so many expressways.

Single carriageway expressways also don't have much benefit by having a different road number. One bypass could be a DK-route with class GP standards (1x2 lanes, controlled access) while the next could be an S-route (1x2 lanes, controlled access). They look practically the same to the average user, except for a different road number.

DK16 near Borki Wielki:
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Old August 6th, 2014, 07:06 PM   #12347
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Prime Minister Tusk announced that A1 will be toll-free during weekends in August, Friday 4pm-Sunday and 14th-17th. Furthermore, abolition of toll booths on GDDKiA sections is expected to be announced this year. Government is considering introduction of an electronic toll only system or vignettes. https://www.premier.gov.pl/wydarzeni...-weekendy.html
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Old August 6th, 2014, 07:10 PM   #12348
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Quote:
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DK16 near Borki Wielki:
GP-class road, with S-stardards and looking like motorway... just Poland!
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Old August 6th, 2014, 07:59 PM   #12349
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Prime Minister Tusk announced that A1 will be toll-free during weekends in August, Friday 4pm-Sunday and 14th-17th. Furthermore, abolition of toll booths on GDDKiA sections is expected to be announced this year. Government is considering introduction of an electronic toll only system or vignettes. https://www.premier.gov.pl/wydarzeni...-weekendy.html
And what about the A4? The toll booths at Wroclaw and Katowice are a complete disaster most of the time now.

I like Poland 99% of the time, but the mess with GDDKiA motorways vs private motorways is just that - a mess. How many people will turn up on the A2 or A4 expecting to use their vignette or ViaAuto and then be caught out? How on earth do you explain to tourists that only government-owned motorways are covered?

Ugh.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 08:06 PM   #12350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
If one would project the Polish standards on foreign motorways, many motorways would become expressways, just look at Italy, Switzerland or even Germany.

If put in another way; what is the benefit to road users by having motorways classified as expressways?

One could argue a more lenient standard of motorway design would come in handy in mountainous terrain. But Poland is nearly uniformly flat, so I don't see the huge benefit of having so many expressways.

Single carriageway expressways also don't have much benefit by having a different road number. One bypass could be a DK-route with class GP standards (1x2 lanes, controlled access) while the next could be an S-route (1x2 lanes, controlled access). They look practically the same to the average user, except for a different road number.

DK16 near Borki Wielki:
http://gddkia.gov.pl/img/artykuly/1/2014_07/1-23.jpg
While Poland isn't mountainous, there are significant hilly areas, for example the S8 between Warsaw and the A1 which would make A-class geometry much more expensive than S-class geometry.

The fact is that A-class and S-class roads are built to different standards. Maybe that was a bad idea. Maybe the additional cost should have been borne to build them all to A-class standards (minus the exit spacing rule). Or maybe the A-class roads should have been build to S-class standards. However, that didn't happen. There are these two different types of grade-separated limited-access dual carriageways. As long as they are different in fact, it is logical to classify them differently.

I'm not Polish and I don't live in Poland, but I've driven dozens of the thousands of kilometers in Poland. I don't find the different speed limits for A-class and S-class roads confusing, so I'm not sympathetic to the argument that some Polish drivers don't know the difference.

For whatever it's worth, the idea that a road should have a fixed speed limit regardless of whether it is day or night, foggy or clear, dry, wet, snowy, or icy makes no sense at all to me. I would rather have dynamic speed limits shown on electronic signs.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 08:24 PM   #12351
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For whatever it's worth, the idea that a road should have a fixed speed limit regardless of whether it is day or night, foggy or clear, dry, wet, snowy, or icy makes no sense at all to me. I would rather have dynamic speed limits shown on electronic signs.
I agree, but the problem is the limits - I've seen signs frequently showing 80 for absolutely no reason at all.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 09:58 PM   #12352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
For whatever it's worth, the idea that a road should have a fixed speed limit regardless of whether it is day or night, foggy or clear, dry, wet, snowy, or icy makes no sense at all to me. I would rather have dynamic speed limits shown on electronic signs.
Exactly what I (kind of) meant.

It would be much more logical to have one limited-access road category and then apply different speed limits for different sections. The maximum would still be 140 km/h, but in case of, let's say, S-11 it would be limited to 120.
That's how it works in Germany and I see no reason why it should be different in Poland, since it makes more sense.

Using electronic signs would be a good idea, but maybe not everywhere. S-11 between Poznań and Kórnik has such signs before tight curves, but they're only on when the weather conditions require the speed to be limited (usually 90 or 80 in case of one of the curves near junction with A-2).
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Old August 6th, 2014, 10:17 PM   #12353
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Quote:
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For whatever it's worth, the idea that a road should have a fixed speed limit regardless of whether it is day or night, foggy or clear, dry, wet, snowy, or icy makes no sense at all to me. I would rather have dynamic speed limits shown on electronic signs.
Just to remind speed limit is a maximum allowed speed not minimum speed to drive regardless of conditions. If some is dumb enough to do 140 km/h in hard conditions it is his fault not everyone else so I don't see why to punish everyone by imposing let say 80 km/h speed restriction while it is safe to drive 100-120 km/h. This problem can be seen in Romania where in rain speed is restricted to 80 km/h but rain to one is a mist to other and old Dacia with worn tyres has different safe maximum speed than few years old car with basically new tyres. For gosh sake don't make collective punishment just because one dumbass was going much to quick, landed in ditch and was so arrogant to blame road authority for not being able to travel with 140 km/h (effectively 160-180) in hard conditions eg. 19km on A1 near Żory.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 01:29 AM   #12354
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Just to remind speed limit is a maximum allowed speed not minimum speed to drive regardless of conditions. If some is dumb enough to do 140 km/h in hard conditions it is his fault not everyone else so I don't see why to punish everyone by imposing let say 80 km/h speed restriction while it is safe to drive 100-120 km/h. This problem can be seen in Romania where in rain speed is restricted to 80 km/h but rain to one is a mist to other and old Dacia with worn tyres has different safe maximum speed than few years old car with basically new tyres. For gosh sake don't make collective punishment just because one dumbass was going much to quick, landed in ditch and was so arrogant to blame road authority for not being able to travel with 140 km/h (effectively 160-180) in hard conditions eg. 19km on A1 near Żory.
That is equally true for fixed speed limits and variable speed limits.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 11:20 AM   #12355
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Does anyone know the cost of the new 2+1 road DK50 between A2 and S8?
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Old August 7th, 2014, 11:36 AM   #12356
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Does anyone know the cost of the new 2+1 road DK50 between A2 and S8?
http://www.obwodnicazyrardowa.pl/

planned total: 267m PLN
construction: 173m PLN net
investment supervision: 6,8m PLN net
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Old August 7th, 2014, 12:16 PM   #12357
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I'd would be far less confusing and you could also simplify the ridiculous sign you see when you drive into Poland, i.e. this:
This sign is simply designed by morons, because even with existing laws it simply does not have to enumerate each and every vehicle category and its speed limit.


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Originally Posted by Richard_P
Motorways have so great parameters that they should have no maximum speed limit
Hahahaha. No.

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Originally Posted by Eulanthe
I like Poland 99% of the time, but the mess with GDDKiA motorways vs private motorways is just that - a mess. How many people will turn up on the A2 or A4 expecting to use their vignette or ViaAuto and then be caught out? How on earth do you explain to tourists that only government-owned motorways are covered?
Yes, it's a mess. And will be until government will get their act together or until private motorways will fall under government control, whichever is sooner.

As for tourist, well, read a guide or something?
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Old August 7th, 2014, 01:10 PM   #12358
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Yes, it's a mess. And will be until government will get their act together or until private motorways will fall under government control, whichever is sooner.

As for tourist, well, read a guide or something?
The problem is how to explain to people quickly about any such system. A sign at the border showing "vignettes needed" - fine, everyone understands them. But what happens when they reach Rzepin on the A2 and suddenly find themselves having to take a ticket?

Having said that, I'm mystified why the GDDKiA can't come to an agreement with the private motorways about the use of ViaToll/Auto.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 03:25 PM   #12359
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The problem is how to explain to people quickly about any such system. A sign at the border showing "vignettes needed" - fine, everyone understands them. But what happens when they reach Rzepin on the A2 and suddenly find themselves having to take a ticket?

Having said that, I'm mystified why the GDDKiA can't come to an agreement with the private motorways about the use of ViaToll/Auto.
Well in Austria you also need to pay extra for tunnels. Some ppl are confused when they go first time but all in all system works...
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Old August 7th, 2014, 04:31 PM   #12360
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The problem is how to explain to people quickly about any such system. A sign at the border showing "vignettes needed" - fine, everyone understands them. But what happens when they reach Rzepin on the A2 and suddenly find themselves having to take a ticket?
How to explain to people quickly? "avoid highways"

I was quite surprised in Romania by the bridge toll. But I think they accepted euros.


Quote:
Having said that, I'm mystified why the GDDKiA can't come to an agreement with the private motorways about the use of ViaToll/Auto.
When in doubt, suspect money. Private operators do not see reason to invest more than necessary, GDDKiA is probably unable to finance it for them for legal reasons.
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